“Jinke naghmon ne ghar kar liya avam ke dilon main…………..”

SJ+-+Stamp

Postage Stamp on Shankar-Jaikishen : Thanks to the Post & Telegraph Deptt. Govt. of India

Meet with other SJ fans on facebook on following address
https://www.facebook.com/groups/shankarjaikishenemperors/

”Unhe mausiqi ka badshah kyon na kahoon!”
”Unhe saazon ka shahenshah main kyoon na kahoon”
”Jinke naghmon ne ghar kar liya avam ke dilon main,
“Unhe is sadi ka chamatkar main kyon na kahoon”,,,,,,,,,,,,, Ajay Kanagat (A SJ fan)

GATEWAY OF STUFFS ON SHANKAR-JAIKISHAN

                           

               JODIs ARE MADE IN HEAVEN

One often wonders are meetings ‘By Chance’ or are they meant to happen….take Shanker-Jaikishan meeting…During his early years, Shankar worked at Prithvi Theaters, and used to frequently visit the office of a Gujrati director Chandravadan Bhatt who had promised Shankar that he would give him a break as a Music Director as and when he produced a film. (cast ur thoughts to how Dev Anand and Guru Dutt met and made a pact to work together – another By CHANCE meeting u think?????). Any way getting back to Shanker…. It was outside the office of Mr Bhatt that Shankar saw `ek dubla patla sunder `ladka’ also sitting there, at Mr Bhatt’s office on a number of occasions. Although they never spoke to each other, one fine day, Shankar took the initiative of starting the conversation and then discovered that his name was Jaikishan and he too used to visit the same producer in search of some work related to music and that he was a Harmonium player. Shankar later recollected that their vibes were right from the very beginning….they developed liking for each other (rather than any feelings of rivalry which could have been natural since both were visiting Mr Bhatt for similar reason) and it was he who then and there assured Jaikishan of the job of a Harmonium player at Prithvi Theaters (without asking Prithviraj Kapoor, fondly referred to as `Papaji’). Of course, later, Papaji honoured Shankar’s selection and gladly accepted Jaikishan as a Harmonium player at Prithvi. Soon, the two of them developed very close friendship. It was during this phase that Shankar and Jaikishan developed a very deep bond of friendship, mutual understanding and regard for each other and made up their mind to work together as a musical team. While working at Prithvi Theater, Shankar and Jaikishan, apart from working in the music department there, used to compose tunes and were in touch with Raj Kapoor, who was working as an assistant to the famous director Kidar Sharma and was aspiring to be an actor/director. Thus, the three had met at Prithvi Theater, run by Raj Kapoor’s father, Prithviraj Kapoor. Raj Kapoor made his debut as a director with the film “Aag” in 1948. While the film received a mixed response at the box office, its musical score by music director Ram Ganguli, assisted by Shankar and Jaikishan proved to be quite popular. However, during the recording of some song for his new venture `Barsaat’, Raj Kapoor had some serious differences with Ram Ganguly, the music composer of the film and decided to assign its music to Shankar who insisted on taking Jaikishan as his partner and thus came into existence the new pair of music directors named `Shankar-Jaikishan’ who gave landmark, path-breaking and trend-setting music for the RK production `Barsaat’ in 1949. So it seems jodies are preordained, by the Almighty….HE also ensures we meet ‘By Chance’.….. RAB NE BANA DEE JODI………< h3 style=”text-align:justify;”>contributed by

Umesh Hindocha ji

WELCOME!!! to the World of  Shanker-Jaikishen’s  memories. The duo who ruled the Music Scenario of Hindi Film Music with their debut film Barsaat for continuous 20 years like Emperors of Melody are still now most listened but less mentioned.  It is a humble effort to spread information about them, their films and music to their die hard fans. You will find rare articles, photos, stories, anecdotes about them here.

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Audio / Visual links of SJ Albums

http://shankarjaikishan.wordpress.com/current-status-of-visitors/download-listen-audiovideos-of-shankar-jaikishan-albums/

Nostalgia from Filmfare (courtesy Shashank Chickermane)

Nostalgianostalgia2

A rare photo of Shankerji, Naushad Sahab and Lata Mangeshkar at the song recording of Ganga Aur Geeta (unreleased)

Courtesy : Abhay Acharekar ji.

Courtesy : Abhay Acharekar ji.

Specimen signature of music director Shanker (of Shanker Jaikishen duo)

shankarji's english

Letter pad of SJ Courtesy Haroo Sudra ji.

letter pad

Hasrat Jaipuri on Shankerji (of Shanker-Jaikishen) [material provided by Dr. Raj Senani]

Hasrat Jaipuri on Shankar 1Hasrat Jaipuri on Shankar 2Hasrat Jaipuri on Shankar 3Hasrat Jaipuri on Shankar 4

Tu Pyar Ka Sagar Hai

Tu Pyar Ka Sagar Hai

By Arun Bajaj 

When man gets buffeted by destiny, when everything seems to go wrong, when a state of utter helplessness and despair overpowers, then the only recourse which men and women across centuries, countries and communities, have clung to, is Prayer. Their Gods may be different : in colour, shape.,gender,or form but the basic leitmotif in every prayer remains the same: I am helpless, I am despaired, I do not see any light in the tunnel, please rescue me from this darkness of uncertainty and give me strength. Even the greatest atheist of this world in such times sends a small prayer up there; as very often did Khushwant Singh, a certified non-believer, by resorting to Jap-ji beads when one was not looking.

Thus the pre-condition to a prayer, of necessity, is melodramatic to say the least. Occurrence of some bad event, loss of job, death of a dear one, or suffering great humiliation etc are some of the typical movie situations which prepare the ground for beseeching divine help. And if such divine help is summoned with music, accompanied by a good voice, well the chances are He might pay more attention. It is therefore no wonder that Prayers, Bhajans and Aartis form an indispensable fabric in the colourful tapestry of Hindi films.

The ten finest prayer-ditties , according to me, have been the following:

Tu pyaar ka sagar hai from Seema
Ae maalik tere bande hum from Do Aankhen Bara Haath
Tere phoolon se bhi pyaar from Naastik
Itni shakti humen dena data from Ankush
Satyam Shivam Sundaram from Satyam Shivam Sundaram
Sukh mein sab saathi dukh mein na koy from Gopi
Banwari re jeene ka sahara tera from Ek Phool Char Kaante
Jago mohan pyare from Jagte Raho
Allah tero naam from Hum Dono
Om Jai Jagdish Hare from Purab aur Pachhim

From the above Tu Pyaar ka sagar hai stands out in solitary splendor of its own for several reasons. The lyrics are a fluid invocation for a drop of compassion from the ethereal . The metaphor of an injured bird whose wings are weak, wanting to cross the vast sea is symbolic of our fractured and selfish desires which overpower the intellect. The human mind is always insistent to take a long flight to pursue its petty interests with the baggage of ego but the cosmic energy of man , caught in the crossfire, invokes the Unknown by praying: “ Ab tu hi isse samajha”. The subtext of the poetry is very clear : If God’s grace is showered, then that drop of nectar will metamorphose the greedy, and ambitious human mind. But that calls for complete surrender to the divine order and out of this surrender, will generate a sublimity which will cleanse and purify all our mundane desires.

Manna Dey sings this number like an entranced devotee. This song was probably composed keeping only Manna in mind. His deep resonant voice creates the right mood as if one is amidst the scent of joss sticks and flowers. The throw in his voice in the octave is a marvel of auditory pleasure.

The composers Shankar Jaikishan employed a chorus of voices to enhance the musical effect and used unconventional things like cowbells to re-create a temple-like ambience. The tune having all komal swars is from his favourite Bhairavi family and extremely easy to play on any wind instrument.

Once the song is over, the listener feels purged and ennobled. The pettiness of the mind is sponged off. Compassion and love overpowers and may be for few minutes you begin finding the world a good place to live in. Well, that’s what a good song should deliver !

Song – Tu Pyaar Ka Saagar Hai ..a spiritual song Movie : Seema (1955) Singers : Manna Dey Lyricist – Shailendra Music Directors – Shankar Jaikishan
YOUTUBE.COM

The Role of the Arranger in Shanker-Jaikishen’s music

This discussion happened on this group on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/groups/660525137354915/

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Like few of my fellow SJ fans I am curious to know the exact role of an Arranger in anyone’s orchestra. I know that like me there is large number of laymen are there in this group, who would be interested in knowing that when there is a brilliant role of an arranger behind success of a particular composition, why there were few average and below average of orchestration in few of SJ’s compositions ? why the arranger Sebastian ji and the in-charge of percussion section Dattara

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  •  
    Raviraj Chandra I too want to know —who is greater ? Arranger or Music director ?
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    Dwarka Prasad Khambia RavirajChandraji……In one of interview OP NAYYAR (at vividh bharati ) has given full credit( in composition of song) to arranger
  •  
    Jitendra Mehta Let me say something, is any body there to say about ABC of a song I.e.making a tune to recording a song.All most all fan must be curious to know about these right from biginnig ! We will be highly obliged.
  •  
    Maruti Rao V Yes, Manohar Vittal ji will give his “expert comments” on this, Sudarshan Pandey ji.
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    Kasargod Satish Mallaya Raviraj Chandra Ji , an arranger’s job is purely that of an assistant . Dattaram & Sebastian were assistants to S-J for several years and largely contributed to the outstanding success of S-J as a team. Dattaram got his break as an independant Music Director in R.K.Films’ Ab Dilli Door Nahin (1957) and later composed music for films like Parvarish (1958) , Santan (1959) , Qaidi No 911 (1959) , Shreeman Satyavadi (1960) etc. Whatever may be his level of competance or efficiency , an assistant cannot be greater than the Music Director by any stretch of imagination.
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    Maruti Rao V You are right Kasargod Satish Mallaya avare, but the question here is what a music arranger exactly does, and how he executes the plan of action drawn by the MD. That is the reason why he is soliciting the opinion of Music directors also because they have the actual first hand experience of such things. I agree with you what you have stated, of course, only partially.
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    Arunprakash Rajagopalan The job of the arranger is exactly what the designation says. As per demand of the lyrics, situation and the MD’s vision, the arranger actually arranges the various musical instruments and in some cases even decides what instrument. This include placement of instrument, there distance from the microphone which determines its prominence. Tthis is more complex than it appears, The arrangement actually sets the mood of the song……
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    Sudarshan Pandey Let the learned people say first Kasargod Satish Mallaya ji, because none of us has gone through/witnessed the process of making of a Composition from tune making to final recording. I have heard that even on some occasions MDs set some particular musician free to think/play some small pieces of music on certain spot of a song. That is why let us wait for sometime to read some comments from the experts. We can just guess only
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    Dwarka Prasad Khambia Untill some expert comments. ….it is no harm to guess so that we will be able to cheque our guess that how much we were correct , Ad.Sudarshan pandey ji
  •  
    Bittu Sharma I guess the arranger arranges different music instruments in a particular sequence.. Sometimes composes counter melodies… Fills the gaps…
    It’s like he fills the colours in a drawing… Which & what colour suits where.. This is his job…
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    Sudarshan Pandey Dwarka Prasad Khambia ji, I am just afraid about repeating of our deep emotions for SJ and claims of their being super-human. Everyone is welcome to guess without being bitter for anyone be it arrangers, other MDs or whoever it may be. Because I have observed that members become hot-minded to prove their own point Come on Sirs……with your versions/take on this subject.
  •  
    Susim Mohanty With due respect to all fellow members… here is my two-bit from whatever I have read over the years…there is a difference between arrangers and assistants. there are many accomplished composers who are equally adept at creating the tune as well as conducting the orchestra. They know the mood of the song and hence the instruments that will heighten the listening experience. They know the exact piece of music that they want. They have 100 % control over the music. Their assistants just help them rehearse or fill in with some suggestions here and there.
    Then there are composers who just have the tune in their heads. They struggle with what instruments to deploy, how to create the highs and the lows and how to fill in the counter melodies and other intricacies. This is where an arranger helps them. He understands the mood of the song, selects the instruments, conducts the orchestra and gives life to a song.
    In bollywood film music history, many assistants have crossed the line to become independent composers. Similarly many arrangers have also become composers.
    I am sure more senior members can shed more light on this…
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    Raviraj Chandra I agree with Susim Mohanty ji .. In my opinion our golden age MDs were highly competent to create songs & orchestra on their own . But about the new age MDs I have no idea
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Susim Mohanty ji that is the definition which you have written. I have myself gone through several stories about assistants who even made one or two tunes of songs for their boss (the official music director). Thanks for the input you gave. It gives some clear picture about an arranger.
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    Partha Sarathi Susim Mohanty’s observations appear very logical and convincing. Laxmikant was one of the most sought after arrangers before he formed the team of LP with Pyarelal jee and what followed was history. Musicians with extra ordinary creative urge, though start as musicians, arrangers or assistants, cannot remain so and when they get a break as independent composers–they put all of themselves in creating the tunes and arranging the music. LP’s Parasmani is the greatest example of this. The orchestration for that B grade film was in no way inferior to those of the then famous and popular MDs who were composing for A Grade films. At times the arrangers decide the instruments to be used in producing certain music pieces–be it prelude or interlude or rhythm. An example is for the song Hamsafar mere Hamsafar from the film Purnima, composed by Kalyanji-Anandjee–it was decided to use many instruments, including the violins for the interlude. But after listening to Manohari Singhjee’s saxophone, Laxmikant Jee decided that the majore part of the song should be filled with that instrument and K.ji Aji agreed for this. Every one knows the music for that song, more than Mukesh and Lataji’s singing, was prominent and made it a super hit. At times, the arranger’s job is only to coordinate the musicians and conduct the rehearsals and recordings. When we hear the orchestration of the 50s,60s music directors, we were able to identify the MD from the orchestra itself. So it is a proof that each MD had a style of his own and was very sure that only his decisions were executed by the arrangers or assistants–
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    Susim Mohanty Pandey ji…you are right. That is my understanding of the difference. Par aapne bhi theek theek kaha hai… Most assistants have indeed composed a few tunes for the main composer and later branched out on their own…as is documented, even SJ did the same for Ram Ganguli in Aag. Folklore has it that even RDB did the same in Aradhana for his father. So…yes…you are quite right in that way… even Basu and Manohari were assistants cum arrangers for RDB.
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Laxmikant also was an arranger for RDB when the latter got his first break with the Memood’s film Chote Nawab in 1962–the very next year they got their break with Parasmani
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Well well well…Partha Sarathiji has put that in perspective very beautifully and lucidly.
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    Partha Sarathi Thank you so much Mohanty jee
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    Shailendra Vaidya I am too waiting for an elaborate and authentic explanation by an expert or experienced person. Till then I would like to share what I knew from reading and discussion with some experienced persons.

    As the word suggests Arranger makes arrangements. But here the scope of the word is very wide as well as creative and technical.

    The arranger listens and discuss the basic tunes of main song and the situation as well as location and mood of the song. He also discuss the basic ideas of MD about the interlude. He studies and create the prelude, interludes, counter melodies and discuss with MD. Then comes the selection of instruments and rhythm .
    The most important work is about writing notations of the main song and interludes/counter melodies and small pieces of tunes as fill ins for each instrument players.

    His work also covers the setting of meter , tone and scale of the song as well as that of different instruments.

    The creativity and nature of making experiments with new and innovative ideas is the real skill of the arranger.

    Also the art of writing notations of minuet piece of music with perfect timing is a real challenge for him to get perfect results.

    He then selects the team of instrumentalists. Generally every arranger has some definite team bacause its a team work where matching of wavelength and mutual understanding is necessary.
    Then comes the arrangements of placement of instruments according to requirement of the song based on prominence of a particular instruments where he is also required to discuss with sound recordists.
    And conducting the team is also an important job. In many cases the arranger is also playing a prime instrument in a song and in such cases he conducts a part or a section of the team along with MD.
    In short the arranger has a complete second to second song in his mind.

  •  
    Partha Sarathi Very right Shailendra Vaidya jee
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Shailendraji has even fine – focused the definition. Very well put, Sir…
  •  
    Raj Chandarana My understand of an arrangers job .
    The main composers will take the story line , lyrics and understand the mood required. Then come up with a basic melody to set the lyrics to. The arrangers invariably sit in on the sessions to get a feel of the song and whatever of orchestration will be required. It is the arranger who will then form the orchestra collection various required instrumentalists It is the the job of the arranger to turn the basic melody from the composer into a complete song . He has to write the music into notations specifying moods etc etcetc which follow the melody and mood required by composer.

    My understanding.

  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Thank you Partha Sarthiji …
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  •  
    Partha Sarathi How I wish an experienced arranger joins our group and explains the whole system and clarifies all our doubts. We are all ardent lovers of music and have interest in its technicalities but were never exposed to the realities of music making. But only one thing escapes me–if arrangers do everything like setting the orchestra etc. then how come each music director’s orchestra sounds different? For example, the violins in SJ’s Music, Madan Mohanjee’s Music and OP Nayyar’s music very much differ from each other. Similarly the rhythm like Tabla and Dholak. They convey the exact style and character of the creations of that particular music director. If arranger is all in all in arranging music then, every music director’s orchestra, particularly the instruments I mentioned, should sound the same. But the reality is not so. We were able to identify the MD just by hearing the music pieces, mostly preludes, even before knowing the details of the film and name of the MD. This proves that the MDs of those times were exercising absolute control over the final outcome of the song and were very particular of the instruments to be arranged by the arrangers–also, the number of violins to get their own individual creative effect. This is what I understand.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Exactly Partha ji that MDs of Golden Era had full control over arranger and orchestra and had their own style and preferences where they didn’t compromise or allowed anyone to change or vary.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi One thing which is common from all the above is, that Composer sets the tune, mood and the feel with pre-inter- and post ludes.
    The arranger /assistant then steps to give shape with micro-managing each piece, note etc.and rehearse for final take…
    Then come the singer, who works with Composers…and combine to complete the song….!!!
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Wow…This is getting better and better now…so many thoughts. So many perspectives and each one building up on the previous…brilliant…
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Now i recollect certain songs in which the orchestra composition fully differed with the original style of the MDS. Can any one believe that Madan Mohan was the MD for the song Husne jab jab ishque se takragaya (Dulhan ek raat ki)–it sounds just like OP Nayyar. Similarly, Ai dil mujhe bata de–by same MD. Perhaps at certain times the arrangers take the decision and do all the work when the MD gives them the reins to control and complete the recording of a song. We can never believe that OP Nayyar saab composed music for the film Ek Baar Muskurado–because none of the songs carry the mark of OP. All that we can do is guess work.
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  •  
    Chandu Kale Aap ka chehra was C Ramchandra, the song mukhda and first interlude music is taken from a song called “That Happy Feeling”. The arranger was Enoch Daniels.
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    Chandu Kale Re: Ae dil Mujhe baas de: MM was told (like most others at that time) to make it sound like OP if it is to sell. Sebastian, who assisted OP, could do the job. Jaidev composed ‘Do Diwane Shahar main’. The producer and financier requested him to give music like RD, Jaisev was going to refuse, but arranger Shamrao Kamble told him we will manage, take it. He arranged the complete orchestration and “RD-fied” it without actually using RD gimmicks. The song was a hit.
  •  
    Chandu Kale El Baar Muskyrado melodies are pure OP, in fact the first time I heard the theme song by Mukesh and Asha, I recognised OP and was surprised to find Mukesh in it. Mukesh has done an excellent job.
  •  
    Dwarka Prasad Khambia As the whole building is constructed according to an ARCHITECTURE of an ENGINEER undre care of CONTRACTOR …..similarly in composition of songs MUSIC DIRECTOR may be like an ENGINEER and ARRANGER may be like a contractor. …..l think so !
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Chandu Kalejee i am sorry I was to post Husn Jab Jab Ishque se takaragaya–and posted a wrong song. So very sorry. I am correcting it. Please pardon the mistake.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Thanks Chandubhai. You have so nicely highlighted some songs with variations from the original style of its MDs.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Very good @Partha Sarathi ji and Shailendra Vaidya ji. But if I am not wrong both of LP team looked after arrangements under KA. According to me from very beginning Pyarelal ji had been in-charge of arrangement independently. However our subject is team of Sebastian-Dattaram for SJ.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Some great MDs started their careers as arrangers and assistants and then became renowned MDs.
    Many people askthat what’s the difference between arranger and MD and why all arrangers could not become MDS.
    The basic point here is , with all due respect to the arrangers and musicians, the inbuilt natural talent and level and quality of creativity. There is no big difference of level but the consistency of level of quality of creativity makes them music directors.
    That was the reason why some Mds gave music in only few movies and continued to be an assistant or arrangers.
    Again the lady luck also play great role for getting break in this industry and there are some unfortunate arrangers/assistant who could not be successful. But they are of course a few.
    Again this is without prejudice and with due respect to all arrangers because their talents are par excellence without any doubt and they are always unsung heroes of music world.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Dwarka Prasad Khambia ji I am happy about a strong and beautiful building, but what about the buildings which collapsed .
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Thanks Sudarshanji. You are right that LP were assistant of KA in the beginning. Even Pyarelalji also worked as musician/arranger with many including SD. Apart from music director Pyarelalji was a master in arrangements too and even these days he is a mentor/ consultant of some present days MDs.
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    Manoj Shukla My two pennies contribution……..I think Raj Chandarana has explained the arranger’s role succinctly in a nutshell. Being musicians themselves who had an exposure to western classical and understanding/writing notations were, I think a major advantage. Arrangers of note in the early days have mainly been individuals of Goanese background such as Chic Chocolate, Anthony Gonsalves and, of course, Sebastian ji. The latter, it is reputed also devised a way to notate the shritis (microtones) into the orchestration according to one article. Perhaps a reading of Naresh Fernandes’ “Taj Mahal Foxtrot” or a viewing of Ashok Rane’s documentary. “Anthony Gonsalves – The Music Legend” may throw interesting insights into the arranger’s role and evolution. I have only managed snippets from both these works!
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Now coming to Sebastian – Dattaram team, all members of our group are well aware that Sebastian was working as arranger of music section and Dattaram was arranger of rhythm/percussion.
    However Sebastian saab had basic inclination towards western music and later on learned Indian classical music. His creativity was mainly towards orchestration and therefore he never tried towards song composition independently.
    However Dattaram ji had Indian classical base with inclination towards song composition and therefore he became MD too.
    Like Sebastian – Dattaram team, SD/RD had a team of Manohari Singh and Maruti ji along with Basuji.
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    Shailendra Vaidya It is said that Sebastian saab and Manohari ji were very perfectionists and were masters in western notations writing. One of the musicians told me once that Manohari ji never missed to write notations of even just two seconds music piece and to give it to a particular musician who had to play it. Such a perfectionist he was….!!!
  •  
    Raj Chandarana Manoj has mentioned a very informative book indeed. Taj Mahal Foxtrot . It outlines the Bombay Jazz Scene. Many Goan Musicians that entered the film industry created wonderful work.apart from ones already mentioned there was also Frank Fernand
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan A book called ‘Behind the curtain’ by Gregory Booth is very informative. It looks at many aspects of music production in the Hindi Film Industry with informative input by Shree Kersi Lord.

    Kersi Lord is an amazing music ‘arranger’ who have a Naushad a different sound in films like Saathi and Ganwaar. Kersi ji also arranged Madan Mohan jis ‘Tum Jo Mil Gaye Ho’.

    On a different slant, Nowadays, as I am working with Artists from the film industry with insights from musicians etc.. The word ‘programmer’ has taken over ‘arranger’. I myself recently composed and ‘programmed’ A Bollywood singers new album along with my music partner. In Mumbai, new kids nowadays are using Pro-Tools, Nuendo, Cubase etc with plug ins to ‘arrange’ music for Music ‘Directors’ like Preetam, Himesh etc..

    A MD may not be a composer. Just a mare director of music. Like a director of a film which he may not have written. The role in the west we know as Music Producer is the same as MD.

    From Wiki – music, an arrangement is a musical reconceptualization of a previously composed work. It may differ from the original work by means of reharmonization, melodic paraphrasing, orchestration, or development of the formal structure. Arranging differs from orchestration in that the latter process is limited to the assignment of notes to instruments for performance by an orchestra, concert band, or other musical ensemble. Arranging “involves adding compositional techniques, such as new thematic material for introductions, transitions, or modulations, and endings…. Arranging is the art of giving an existing melody musical variety”

  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan Also I know that a few average MDs who are connected to me in some ways (Don’t want to name) in the 90s/2000s who are not composers are credited on a few films as ‘Music By’. These people who I know cannot even play an instrument or compose. They are business men. One out of them was a great ‘arranger’ but could not create a tune and left to a famous 90s lyric writer to make the tune!
  •  
    Subhash Tiwari Composing a song is like giving birth to a baby, newborn. Original for the mother but still carrying genetic features of the ancestors or previous performers. Orchestration is a factual scripting of the vitals of this newborn, the hair, the head, the trunk, arms etc the way these are. Arranging is the dressing of this new born immediately or even after many years, applying hair oil or cream, foundation to the face, whether the neck will have a bow or a necklace, clothes and their colour etc. We have seen very pretty children dressed very badly and the other extreme of having ugly looking but very nicely dressed children.
  •  
    Kailash Mundra You being a Doctor, nicely described it Subhashji …
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Very informative discussion indeed.
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    Chandu Kale Kaykay Chauhan what you have mentioned applies to a lot many. One only needs to see Sudeep Audio videos on YouTube to see what Da-Da-Da-Da stuff they send the arrangers (who are now programmers, since everything is digital, hardly any live instruments), who put in fillers, rhythm, interlude etc as they see fit within their set repertoires
  •  
    J.k. Mehta surprised to find Sumit Da keeping mum on a subject he is most suited to shed some light on.His silence is intriguing and killing as well.
  •  
    Arunprakash Rajagopalan Husn jab jab ishq se is a song from Neend hamari Khwab tumhare , not Dulhan ek ratki…..
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    Jitendra Mehta Thanks a lot.A very useful discussion & informative too.
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    Raviraj Chandra I totally agree with Subhash Tiwari ji. MDs like SJ are creators (like God ) and arrangers/assistants are there to provide the touch-up under the guidance of MDs
  •  
    Ashit Gogwekar Anil Mohile of famous Anil-Arun pair (Arun Paudwal – husband of Anuradha Paudwal, the singer) had once said in an interview that it is arranger who decides the type of instrument used and many times decides preludes and interludes as well; off course in consultation and approval of main MD, Anil Mohile was regular with Lata Mangeshkae stage programmes and has been assistant MD to S D Burman, R D Bueman, Madan Mohan and Hridaynath Mangeshkar. He died in sleep last year!
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    Maruti Rao V What I can I say about this thread. One of the best, most thought provoking, brilliant, each writer excelling the other and the end result is mind blowing. We have inputs from musicians like Chandu Kale ji, Kaykay Chauhan ji and brilliant inputs and inclusive writings from Susim Mohanty ji, Partha Sarathi ji, Subash Subhash Tiwari ji, Raj Chandarana ji, Shailendra Vaidya ji,and others and the entire thread is enlightening. I am sure Sudarshan Pandey is delighted and will sure document this later after it is closed.
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    Maruti Rao V Special mention should also be made of brilliant inputs by Shailendra Vaidya. Extraordinary indeed.
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    Kaykay Chauhan It would probably be a good idea to maybe start another thread on the in depth analysing of musical arrangements of Shankar-Jaikishan songs.

    Also another idea is to maybe start a thread on the difference between a Music Director and a composer.

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    Shailendra Vaidya Thank you Maruti ji. Basically as a music lover my interest and inclination is more towards musical instruments, tunes and orchestration as compared to lyrics and just out of interest and curiosity whatever I have read and discussed with experienced persons , I tried to share in this forum so that I can learn more from the inputs from members and knowledgeable persons as you have mentioned above .
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    Dharma Kirthi I am in total agreement with Maruti Raoji’s observations.
    As KayKay Chauhan ji has suggested, another thread to analyze various compositions of SJ will, actually serve as a learning document for various fans and students of music.
    Sudarshanji, this may not be a bad idea to have an entire page dedicated to musical analysis of SJ’s music on the lines of Yeh mera geet…which is documentary of lyrics…!!
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    Shailendra Vaidya Great idea Dharmaji ….!!!
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    Dharma Kirthi Yeh Mera Geet jeevan Sangeet is happening due to single minded dedication of our friend Sandeep Apte…and is now evolving into a great melting pot of various experts and followers of SJ-SH…on the lyrics side.
    A similar initiative on musical side would make our documentation complete from all perspectives…..Sudarshan Pandey ji .please deliberate on this idea.
    The best part is that, this thread has revealed the availability of ‘Guni Jan’ to make this endeavor worthwhile..
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    Pradeep Kumar Gupta In Indian scenario of music making (especially film songs composition) it is believed that the music composer composes the melodic structure of the song (lyric). The harmonic structure also known as contrapuntal (counter melody or sometimes counter point harmony) is composed by the arranger who does have great knowledge of western classical and harmonic structure. An arranger composes the counter melody in the periphery of the main (lead) melodic structure (in olden days most of the songs were based on Indian classical ragas or raginies), for that he needs different types of musical instruments like bow strings (violin, viola, and cello), strings (guitar- acoustic, electric {Spanish and Hawaiian, base etc), wood winds like flute, key boards like harmonium, piano, organ, synthesizer and many more) and from rhythm section (both Indian as well as western rhythm instruments). Prelude, interludes and in some cases postlude of a song are composed by an arranger. It is believed that since the play back singing was introduced to Hindi film music, Sebastian D’souza, a music maestro, an ace piano and violin player, thorough gentle man like a saint has been considered as the best ever arranger not only by his audience and music lovers but also by the great musical figures from the film fraternity. The fans of SHANKAR-JAIKISHAN will be glad to know that Sebastian’s association with the duo has been the longest association till date from 1952 to 1975. So far arranger’s role is concerned, “obbligato” a special piece of music which becomes an integral part of the whole composition without which the natural effect of the song is felt missing. This obbligato is normally composed by an arranger barring a few exceptions when the instrumentalist himself played an obbligato sometimes apart from the written piece of music (once it happened with OP Nayyar during a song recording and the musician was paid an additional Rs1,000). Which piece of music, in what sequence on which instrument, in what pattern are a few questions, the main composer is not bothered about. I believe I have answered to the query. Rest will be added by more knowledgeable members who are ace musicians themselves like Chandu Kale Sir etc. Regards.
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    Dharma Kirthi Pradeepji, that is an excellent and enlighteing essay on the role of an arranger.
    The question was, if Sebastian was working with so many composers, then why is it that SJ’s music had such richness in their music, Orchestra and the interludes etc…why was the same missing from other composers work.
    And, why did some of the music sounded so ordinary and some simply divine…?
    Does the arranger go beyond the brief of composers…Here, we shall restrict ourselves to SJ and the contemporary one’s with whom Sebastian Sir worked?
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    Raj Chandarana Dharmaji the answer to your question is simple. A good arranger whilst working for various MDs would maintain each MDs style and signature. Otherwise music would all become one and rather boring Not as complicated as one would be lead to believe.
    Wouldn’t you agree?
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    Susim Mohanty Dharmaji. Good question. I had expressed the same issue in this very post before…
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    Dwarka Prasad Khambia I have read in some article that Sebastian has worked with LP too……is it write , dear resp. SJ buddies ?
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    Dharma Kirthi Raj ji I can’t but agree with you..! My question emanates from a line of thinking which attributes the entire credit of SJ’s genius to St Sebastian…
    I always believe that in that era of some phenomenal composers operating contemporary span..and even shared the arranger…only because:
    1. Confidence in their work and style.
    2. Had supreme faith in the integrity of the arranger
    3. Never needed to ape a fellow composers style.
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    Dharma Kirthi Susim Mohanti ji, I agree with you, and posed the question merely to bring it back to centre stage of our discussion…!! As it started from that very point..!
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    Sudarshan Pandey Dear friends, I am learning more and more after reading this thread and thanks to Susim Mohanty ji’s one comment in another thread which made me to initiate this, Which I will incorporate in a blog dedicated to SJ. J.k. Mehta ji our Sumit Mitra daa is not very regular on facebook that is why we are not getting his inputs but I hope many of us might have got the idea of an Arranger’s job.
    I am still curious to know about few weak/average/below average compositions of SJ as to how they (arrangers) are also to share the responsibility if they are praised for many of good work.
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    Kaykay Chauhan Just thinking – Sebastian and Dattaram were always credited as Assistants, not Arrangers in the films credits. An Assistants role would be different to an arrangers role.
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    Rudradeep Bhattacharjee The history of HFM has to be radically re-evaluated and the arrangers (and musicians) given their due!
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    Raj Chandarana I haven’t had much time to contribute to this thread but have managed to read quite a fair number of comments. There is some useful information here. KayKay if I was to take a guess why Sabastien and Dattaram were credited as Assistants then I would say that ‘ Assistant ‘ is a role more easily recognized but ‘ Arranger ‘ is a role not so clear . As we have been finding out in this thread.Most of us here are fairly well in the know , even then we are struggling with what An arrangers role exactly is.
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    Kaykay Chauhan Also in those days in the 60s, The word Arranger has cropped up in film titles. Kersi Lords name being the prominent one. Also Jai Parte being another arranger for Kalyanji-Anandji before Viju Shah took over in the 80s. K-A’s music sounded so different in the 80’s due to Viju Shah’s involvement. Sonik was also credited as ‘arranger’ for Madan Mohan Ji and Usha Khanna. My belief is that S-J had a massive say in arrangement style, instrumentation, harmonics, and finish hence needed an ‘assistant’ to help them, rather than just give it to an ‘arranger’ and let him do what he wants and then have the final say.
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    Dharma Kirthi Kaykay ji, you have finally hit the nail on its head…!! SJ were masters in their craft, in totality…!
    Sebastian may have contributed initially..but later on, he too..was mastered…! And Sebastian a saintly and loyal person that he was…never allowed his craft to be shared with other composers…
    But, the same may not be said about the other assistant…who switched his loyalties…!!
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    Rudradeep Bhattacharjee Kersi Lord used to insist on a separate title as Arranger. But even then he did not get it always. The arrangers were always all credited as assistants, whether it was Chic Chocolate or Manohari Singh.
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    Padmanabh Joshi Sebastian never worked with LP as Pyarelalji himself is an excellent arranger.
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    Dharma Kirthi You are absolutely right Dr Padmanabhji…! That beings us to the point, who from SJ camp worked with LP…?
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    Dwarka Prasad Khambia Kaykay chouhanji…in context with the above…One thing more , SONIK(OMI)JI had also worked as an assistant to ROSHAN.
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    Kaykay Chauhan Dharma Kirthi ji. I think it was Dattaram who assisted L-P in Bobby.
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    Dharma Kirthi YES….!!!Kaykay ji…!!!
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    Kaykay Chauhan Shashikant-Gorakh were the ‘assistants’ to L-P as Pyrelal was the ‘arranger’. My good freind playback singer Mangal Singh worked with L-P around the 1991-94 mark. I will try and get some insight from him in terms of Shashikant and Gorakhs roles.
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    Kaykay Chauhan I also believe Naresh Sharma was the ‘arranger’ for Nadeem-Shravan. Naresh Sharma’s son is the Aashqui 2 Composer Mithoon. Amar Haldipur was another noted Arranger who I think worked for Nusrat Ji’s Hindi films in the 90s.
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    Kaykay Chauhan Uttam Singh had his stamp all over as an arranger in Raamlaxmans ‘Rajshree films’. Uttam Singh also arranged Naushad ji’s last film ‘Taj Mahal’ I think in 2005.
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    Dharma Kirthi Sudarshan ji, the answer to your question of’ why some substandard stuff came out despite the presence of Dattaram…in later years of SJ…Although it is not in black and white…but, what is available here corroborates many undocumented stories…!
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    Dharma Kirthi Kaykay ji, it will indeed throw a great deal of light on how the assistants and arrangers worked.
    Gorakh was Pyarelal’s brother.
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    Dharma Kirthi Amar Haldipur, who partnered Utpal..for a few films can also throw a lot of light..on the role of these ‘benam’ artists behind the scene…!
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    Kaykay Chauhan I will also talk to a few friends in the Music Industry who are musicians. I will also talk to a few playback singers I know when I get a chance. Kumar Sanu may add some light to this when I talk see him again in a few months time. He would I guess only have experiences from the all the 90s MDs like Anu ji, N-S, Jatin Lalit and Anand Milind but will try for sure of the 90s/2000’s roles of MDs/Arrangers/Assistants.
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    Dwarka Prasad Khambia And dear Kirthi,….who is this SHASHIKANTJI ?….once l have read that farher of famous singer ANURADHA PODHAWAL was also an arranger of LP.Is he the same ?
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    Maruti Rao V Manohar Vittal ji has confirmed that Dattaram was assistant to LP and he has seen and talked to him when LP was signed to give music for a Kannada film in 80’s for which Manohar ji wrote lyrics.
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    Dharma Kirthi Dwarka bhai, I have no clue about Shashikant…!
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    Dwarka Prasad Khambia Kaykay Chauhanji…..Pyarelalji(Laxmikant) once said in his interview( at vividh bharati) that one of his brother is a arranger of MD-NADEEM SHRAWAN…….probably he may be Naresh Sharma because the surname of Pyarelalji is also Sharma.
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    Shailendra Vaidya Sudarshanji, about your question about some average composition of SJ (and for that matter it applies to all great MDs ) the logic can be like this. The creativity in any form of art (like music or design or painting or lyrics writing , gazal etc) is based on mood and spark in an artist and he has different phase of mood and and like a sportsman, he also passes through a lean patch . So for a musician also it applies . That might be the logic for some weak composition. Also pressure of work might leads to mental fatigue which hampers the quality. It is next to impossible for any artist to give all products par excellence.
    So in such case what an arranger can do? Still sometime we see some interesting pieces of interludes or counter melodies in an average song too because of efforts of arranger/assistant.
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    Sudarshan Pandey My question is about the Asstts, Arranger and not SJ……….Shailendra Vaidya ji. On this particular subject and he told it is difficult to differentiate about role of a music director, arranger, assistants to MDs or set a LoC that is why only the fours -Sebastian, SJ and Dattaram would have been the right persons to answer this because the responsibilities, the name and fame or criticism should be shared by the team of 4s keeping the supremacy of SJ, the music directors duo.
    It is known that both of SJ, particularly Shankerji would demonstrate even music pieces, the length and timing of few pieces on his harmonium which Sebastian ji would write.
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    Shailendra Vaidya Sudarshanji, I had added , after editing, one para above which covers your curiosity.
    I feel that assistant/arranger can not be held responsible for a basically weak tune. Otherwise a good arranger can make any average MD as great one.They can try to improve it but if it is a dry or weak tune in itself then why he should be blamed.?
    The prime responsibility lies on MD himself.
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    Chandu Kale Dwarka Prasad Khambia I believe Shashikant is Laxmikant’s brother.
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    Susim Mohanty Btw…is it a coincidence that we are discussing about arrangers and assistants in the context of SJ only…?because if we notice, barring Sebastian and Dattaram, very very few discussions are held over arrangers and assistants of other music composers…even in their respective forums, except for say, Basu-Manohari in the RD context. so I guess the contribution of these two gentlemen in SJ’s career must have been significant…
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    Jitendra Mehta Pl. all gentle men , it is my humble open ion that SJ’s team was unique: SJ & Dattaram & Sebestian sir.As a team work it was matchless! Even though each & everybody had his role, place & space to play. With SH there is np team like this up till now! Sebestian sir was par excellance no doubt., without which the team is not complete! But MD is parent of music! & SJ were SJ!! For them music was not bread& butter but breath, blood & bowl!! Their marvellous, unique & sweet tunes require only decoration! With due respect to Sebestian sir l have to say that he entered the, team at the time of ‘Dag.’ Before that great SJ had given a series of musically hit films : A blockbuster Barsat & globally fame Aavara, then Badal,Kalighata, Nagina, Poo am & Parbat !!
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    Pradeep Kumar Gupta Dear Dharma Sir, very good question you have asked. There is a Puna Music Society run by the Parsee Community. Once a documentary on the human factors in making film music was screened there. I was also among audience. Famous musician and arranger of yesteryears Kersi Lord and Enoch Daniel were the chief guests of the event. When asked by some one Mr. Lord explained that the arranger makes all arrangements as asked by the main composer and creates magic. Enoch Daniel also nodded his head to approve this. It was the same Kersi Lord who had worked with all great composers of his time including Naushad Ali for whom he did arrangement in Saathi, and just listen to the soulful tune. The result was mesmerizing. It was the same Kersi Lord who did arrangement for Rafi Saab’s famous song.”tum jo mil gaye ho”-Hanste Jakhm for Madan Mohan and it was the same Kersi Lord who made the prelude and interlude of “Roop tera mastana” – Aaradhana” for great S.D. Burman but the same Kersi Lord couldn’t create any magic with the sound track of a famous comedy film by Kundan Shah-“Jaane bhi do yaaron” for the composer Vanraj Bhatia. He is the same Vanraj Bhatia who graduated from Trinity College of Music, London with gold medal. But because of the poor melodic structure the arranger like Kersi Lord couldn’t repeat the same magic, what he is known for otherwise. I think you have got the message, what exactly I intend to convey. Sebastian D’souza before joining the film industry in Mumbai was a piano and violin player at a hotel in Lahore. It was OP Nayyar who saw him there playing at the hotel and brought him down to Mumbai and introduced him to the industry. SJ started their career as independent composers in somewhere around 1947-48 and their first soundtrack was released with the debuting film “Barsaat ” in 1949. Sebastian joined the duo in 1952 after Sunny Castelino left the SJ team. The name of Sebastian was suggested by Sunny Castelino only. Sebastian in one of his interviews candidly said that he enjoyed the most with SHANKAR-JAIKISHAN. I feel the thread is getting stretched out of proportion. So in nut shell Sebastian’s skill of arrangement also owed to the melodic structure of SJ if SJ owe a lot to Sebastian (as many people claim). Perhaps much better than the melodic structures of other contemporaries, and this is the secrete why my elder brother Dharma Bhai is an ardent fan of SHANKAR-JAIKISHAN.
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    Dharma Kirthi Pradeep Kumar ji, I dont think, any one would have answered my question better than what you have done my dear friend..!! I have this infinite devotion to SJ, but I am as much a person, with an open mind..hence, it always baffled me, when people would say , what they say, as you have mentioned about credits being given..Sebastian ji etc.. I have tremendous respect for Sebastian ji, for his skills and more for his integrity as a craftsman..!! As you have mentioned in your concluding lines.. they SJ and Sebastian jelled exceptionally to create all those magical melodies, which sound new even today..and without the help of sophisticated sound engineering…The essence and key was the “Melodic Structure” which is the Janani and Sutra of a song..!! the genesis and soul..!! everything else is accompaniment.. which enhances this structure..!! Thanks a ton my dear friend..!!
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    Chandu Kale Kudos to Pradeep Kumar Gupta for such a complete answer.
    9 hrs · Unlike · 4
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    Dharma Kirthi Ditto Chandu ji..!!
    9 hrs · Unlike · 1
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    Sudarshan Pandey Very well defined Pradeep bhai……… Maan gaye…………..you have very rightly elaborated and summed up this thread. I believe after your views, there is no scope for any more addition in this thread.
    41 mins · Like · 1
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    Dharma Kirthi So we may have a classic Alap by Rafi-Lata…from a very high pitch to show up ‘The End’..
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