“Jinke naghmon ne ghar kar liya avam ke dilon main…………..”

SJ+-+Stamp

Postage Stamp on Shankar-Jaikishen : Thanks to the Post & Telegraph Deptt. Govt. of India

Meet with other SJ fans on facebook on following address
https://www.facebook.com/groups/shankarjaikishenemperors/

”Unhe mausiqi ka badshah kyon na kahoon!”
”Unhe saazon ka shahenshah main kyoon na kahoon”
”Jinke naghmon ne ghar kar liya avam ke dilon main,
“Unhe is sadi ka chamatkar main kyon na kahoon”,,,,,,,,,,,,, Ajay Kanagat (A SJ fan)

GATEWAY OF STUFFS ON SHANKAR-JAIKISHAN

                           

               JODIs ARE MADE IN HEAVEN

One often wonders are meetings ‘By Chance’ or are they meant to happen….take Shanker-Jaikishan meeting…During his early years, Shankar worked at Prithvi Theaters, and used to frequently visit the office of a Gujrati director Chandravadan Bhatt who had promised Shankar that he would give him a break as a Music Director as and when he produced a film. (cast ur thoughts to how Dev Anand and Guru Dutt met and made a pact to work together – another By CHANCE meeting u think?????). Any way getting back to Shanker…. It was outside the office of Mr Bhatt that Shankar saw `ek dubla patla sunder `ladka’ also sitting there, at Mr Bhatt’s office on a number of occasions. Although they never spoke to each other, one fine day, Shankar took the initiative of starting the conversation and then discovered that his name was Jaikishan and he too used to visit the same producer in search of some work related to music and that he was a Harmonium player. Shankar later recollected that their vibes were right from the very beginning….they developed liking for each other (rather than any feelings of rivalry which could have been natural since both were visiting Mr Bhatt for similar reason) and it was he who then and there assured Jaikishan of the job of a Harmonium player at Prithvi Theaters (without asking Prithviraj Kapoor, fondly referred to as `Papaji’). Of course, later, Papaji honoured Shankar’s selection and gladly accepted Jaikishan as a Harmonium player at Prithvi. Soon, the two of them developed very close friendship. It was during this phase that Shankar and Jaikishan developed a very deep bond of friendship, mutual understanding and regard for each other and made up their mind to work together as a musical team. While working at Prithvi Theater, Shankar and Jaikishan, apart from working in the music department there, used to compose tunes and were in touch with Raj Kapoor, who was working as an assistant to the famous director Kidar Sharma and was aspiring to be an actor/director. Thus, the three had met at Prithvi Theater, run by Raj Kapoor’s father, Prithviraj Kapoor. Raj Kapoor made his debut as a director with the film “Aag” in 1948. While the film received a mixed response at the box office, its musical score by music director Ram Ganguli, assisted by Shankar and Jaikishan proved to be quite popular. However, during the recording of some song for his new venture `Barsaat’, Raj Kapoor had some serious differences with Ram Ganguly, the music composer of the film and decided to assign its music to Shankar who insisted on taking Jaikishan as his partner and thus came into existence the new pair of music directors named `Shankar-Jaikishan’ who gave landmark, path-breaking and trend-setting music for the RK production `Barsaat’ in 1949. So it seems jodies are preordained, by the Almighty….HE also ensures we meet ‘By Chance’.….. RAB NE BANA DEE JODI………< h3 style=”text-align:justify;”>contributed by

Umesh Hindocha ji

WELCOME!!! to the World of  Shanker-Jaikishen’s  memories. The duo who ruled the Music Scenario of Hindi Film Music with their debut film Barsaat for continuous 20 years like Emperors of Melody are still now most listened but less mentioned.  It is a humble effort to spread information about them, their films and music to their die hard fans. You will find rare articles, photos, stories, anecdotes about them here.

*************************************************************************************

Audio / Visual links of SJ Albums

http://shankarjaikishan.wordpress.com/current-status-of-visitors/download-listen-audiovideos-of-shankar-jaikishan-albums/

The Role of the Arranger in Shanker-Jaikishen’s music

This discussion happened on this group on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/groups/660525137354915/

  • Write a commen
 

Like few of my fellow SJ fans I am curious to know the exact role of an Arranger in anyone’s orchestra. I know that like me there is large number of laymen are there in this group, who would be interested in knowing that when there is a brilliant role of an arranger behind success of a particular composition, why there were few average and below average of orchestration in few of SJ’s compositions ? why the arranger Sebastian ji and the in-charge of percussion section Dattara

See More

 
  •  
    Raviraj Chandra I too want to know —who is greater ? Arranger or Music director ?
  •  
    Dwarka Prasad Khambia RavirajChandraji……In one of interview OP NAYYAR (at vividh bharati ) has given full credit( in composition of song) to arranger
  •  
    Jitendra Mehta Let me say something, is any body there to say about ABC of a song I.e.making a tune to recording a song.All most all fan must be curious to know about these right from biginnig ! We will be highly obliged.
  •  
    Maruti Rao V Yes, Manohar Vittal ji will give his “expert comments” on this, Sudarshan Pandey ji.
  •  
    Kasargod Satish Mallaya Raviraj Chandra Ji , an arranger’s job is purely that of an assistant . Dattaram & Sebastian were assistants to S-J for several years and largely contributed to the outstanding success of S-J as a team. Dattaram got his break as an independant Music Director in R.K.Films’ Ab Dilli Door Nahin (1957) and later composed music for films like Parvarish (1958) , Santan (1959) , Qaidi No 911 (1959) , Shreeman Satyavadi (1960) etc. Whatever may be his level of competance or efficiency , an assistant cannot be greater than the Music Director by any stretch of imagination.
  •  
    Maruti Rao V You are right Kasargod Satish Mallaya avare, but the question here is what a music arranger exactly does, and how he executes the plan of action drawn by the MD. That is the reason why he is soliciting the opinion of Music directors also because they have the actual first hand experience of such things. I agree with you what you have stated, of course, only partially.
  •  
    Arunprakash Rajagopalan The job of the arranger is exactly what the designation says. As per demand of the lyrics, situation and the MD’s vision, the arranger actually arranges the various musical instruments and in some cases even decides what instrument. This include placement of instrument, there distance from the microphone which determines its prominence. Tthis is more complex than it appears, The arrangement actually sets the mood of the song……
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Let the learned people say first Kasargod Satish Mallaya ji, because none of us has gone through/witnessed the process of making of a Composition from tune making to final recording. I have heard that even on some occasions MDs set some particular musician free to think/play some small pieces of music on certain spot of a song. That is why let us wait for sometime to read some comments from the experts. We can just guess only
  •  
    Dwarka Prasad Khambia Untill some expert comments. ….it is no harm to guess so that we will be able to cheque our guess that how much we were correct , Ad.Sudarshan pandey ji
  •  
    Bittu Sharma I guess the arranger arranges different music instruments in a particular sequence.. Sometimes composes counter melodies… Fills the gaps…
    It’s like he fills the colours in a drawing… Which & what colour suits where.. This is his job…
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Dwarka Prasad Khambia ji, I am just afraid about repeating of our deep emotions for SJ and claims of their being super-human. Everyone is welcome to guess without being bitter for anyone be it arrangers, other MDs or whoever it may be. Because I have observed that members become hot-minded to prove their own point Come on Sirs……with your versions/take on this subject.
  •  
    Susim Mohanty With due respect to all fellow members… here is my two-bit from whatever I have read over the years…there is a difference between arrangers and assistants. there are many accomplished composers who are equally adept at creating the tune as well as conducting the orchestra. They know the mood of the song and hence the instruments that will heighten the listening experience. They know the exact piece of music that they want. They have 100 % control over the music. Their assistants just help them rehearse or fill in with some suggestions here and there.
    Then there are composers who just have the tune in their heads. They struggle with what instruments to deploy, how to create the highs and the lows and how to fill in the counter melodies and other intricacies. This is where an arranger helps them. He understands the mood of the song, selects the instruments, conducts the orchestra and gives life to a song.
    In bollywood film music history, many assistants have crossed the line to become independent composers. Similarly many arrangers have also become composers.
    I am sure more senior members can shed more light on this…
  •  
    Raviraj Chandra I agree with Susim Mohanty ji .. In my opinion our golden age MDs were highly competent to create songs & orchestra on their own . But about the new age MDs I have no idea
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Susim Mohanty ji that is the definition which you have written. I have myself gone through several stories about assistants who even made one or two tunes of songs for their boss (the official music director). Thanks for the input you gave. It gives some clear picture about an arranger.
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Susim Mohanty’s observations appear very logical and convincing. Laxmikant was one of the most sought after arrangers before he formed the team of LP with Pyarelal jee and what followed was history. Musicians with extra ordinary creative urge, though start as musicians, arrangers or assistants, cannot remain so and when they get a break as independent composers–they put all of themselves in creating the tunes and arranging the music. LP’s Parasmani is the greatest example of this. The orchestration for that B grade film was in no way inferior to those of the then famous and popular MDs who were composing for A Grade films. At times the arrangers decide the instruments to be used in producing certain music pieces–be it prelude or interlude or rhythm. An example is for the song Hamsafar mere Hamsafar from the film Purnima, composed by Kalyanji-Anandjee–it was decided to use many instruments, including the violins for the interlude. But after listening to Manohari Singhjee’s saxophone, Laxmikant Jee decided that the majore part of the song should be filled with that instrument and K.ji Aji agreed for this. Every one knows the music for that song, more than Mukesh and Lataji’s singing, was prominent and made it a super hit. At times, the arranger’s job is only to coordinate the musicians and conduct the rehearsals and recordings. When we hear the orchestration of the 50s,60s music directors, we were able to identify the MD from the orchestra itself. So it is a proof that each MD had a style of his own and was very sure that only his decisions were executed by the arrangers or assistants–
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Pandey ji…you are right. That is my understanding of the difference. Par aapne bhi theek theek kaha hai… Most assistants have indeed composed a few tunes for the main composer and later branched out on their own…as is documented, even SJ did the same for Ram Ganguli in Aag. Folklore has it that even RDB did the same in Aradhana for his father. So…yes…you are quite right in that way… even Basu and Manohari were assistants cum arrangers for RDB.
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Laxmikant also was an arranger for RDB when the latter got his first break with the Memood’s film Chote Nawab in 1962–the very next year they got their break with Parasmani
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Well well well…Partha Sarathiji has put that in perspective very beautifully and lucidly.
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Thank you so much Mohanty jee
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya I am too waiting for an elaborate and authentic explanation by an expert or experienced person. Till then I would like to share what I knew from reading and discussion with some experienced persons.

    As the word suggests Arranger makes arrangements. But here the scope of the word is very wide as well as creative and technical.

    The arranger listens and discuss the basic tunes of main song and the situation as well as location and mood of the song. He also discuss the basic ideas of MD about the interlude. He studies and create the prelude, interludes, counter melodies and discuss with MD. Then comes the selection of instruments and rhythm .
    The most important work is about writing notations of the main song and interludes/counter melodies and small pieces of tunes as fill ins for each instrument players.

    His work also covers the setting of meter , tone and scale of the song as well as that of different instruments.

    The creativity and nature of making experiments with new and innovative ideas is the real skill of the arranger.

    Also the art of writing notations of minuet piece of music with perfect timing is a real challenge for him to get perfect results.

    He then selects the team of instrumentalists. Generally every arranger has some definite team bacause its a team work where matching of wavelength and mutual understanding is necessary.
    Then comes the arrangements of placement of instruments according to requirement of the song based on prominence of a particular instruments where he is also required to discuss with sound recordists.
    And conducting the team is also an important job. In many cases the arranger is also playing a prime instrument in a song and in such cases he conducts a part or a section of the team along with MD.
    In short the arranger has a complete second to second song in his mind.

  •  
    Partha Sarathi Very right Shailendra Vaidya jee
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Shailendraji has even fine – focused the definition. Very well put, Sir…
  •  
    Raj Chandarana My understand of an arrangers job .
    The main composers will take the story line , lyrics and understand the mood required. Then come up with a basic melody to set the lyrics to. The arrangers invariably sit in on the sessions to get a feel of the song and whatever of orchestration will be required. It is the arranger who will then form the orchestra collection various required instrumentalists It is the the job of the arranger to turn the basic melody from the composer into a complete song . He has to write the music into notations specifying moods etc etcetc which follow the melody and mood required by composer.

    My understanding.

  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Thank you Partha Sarthiji …
  •  
  •  
    Partha Sarathi How I wish an experienced arranger joins our group and explains the whole system and clarifies all our doubts. We are all ardent lovers of music and have interest in its technicalities but were never exposed to the realities of music making. But only one thing escapes me–if arrangers do everything like setting the orchestra etc. then how come each music director’s orchestra sounds different? For example, the violins in SJ’s Music, Madan Mohanjee’s Music and OP Nayyar’s music very much differ from each other. Similarly the rhythm like Tabla and Dholak. They convey the exact style and character of the creations of that particular music director. If arranger is all in all in arranging music then, every music director’s orchestra, particularly the instruments I mentioned, should sound the same. But the reality is not so. We were able to identify the MD just by hearing the music pieces, mostly preludes, even before knowing the details of the film and name of the MD. This proves that the MDs of those times were exercising absolute control over the final outcome of the song and were very particular of the instruments to be arranged by the arrangers–also, the number of violins to get their own individual creative effect. This is what I understand.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Exactly Partha ji that MDs of Golden Era had full control over arranger and orchestra and had their own style and preferences where they didn’t compromise or allowed anyone to change or vary.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi One thing which is common from all the above is, that Composer sets the tune, mood and the feel with pre-inter- and post ludes.
    The arranger /assistant then steps to give shape with micro-managing each piece, note etc.and rehearse for final take…
    Then come the singer, who works with Composers…and combine to complete the song….!!!
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Wow…This is getting better and better now…so many thoughts. So many perspectives and each one building up on the previous…brilliant…
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Now i recollect certain songs in which the orchestra composition fully differed with the original style of the MDS. Can any one believe that Madan Mohan was the MD for the song Husne jab jab ishque se takragaya (Dulhan ek raat ki)–it sounds just like OP Nayyar. Similarly, Ai dil mujhe bata de–by same MD. Perhaps at certain times the arrangers take the decision and do all the work when the MD gives them the reins to control and complete the recording of a song. We can never believe that OP Nayyar saab composed music for the film Ek Baar Muskurado–because none of the songs carry the mark of OP. All that we can do is guess work.
  •  
  •  
    Chandu Kale Aap ka chehra was C Ramchandra, the song mukhda and first interlude music is taken from a song called “That Happy Feeling”. The arranger was Enoch Daniels.
  •  
    Chandu Kale Re: Ae dil Mujhe baas de: MM was told (like most others at that time) to make it sound like OP if it is to sell. Sebastian, who assisted OP, could do the job. Jaidev composed ‘Do Diwane Shahar main’. The producer and financier requested him to give music like RD, Jaisev was going to refuse, but arranger Shamrao Kamble told him we will manage, take it. He arranged the complete orchestration and “RD-fied” it without actually using RD gimmicks. The song was a hit.
  •  
    Chandu Kale El Baar Muskyrado melodies are pure OP, in fact the first time I heard the theme song by Mukesh and Asha, I recognised OP and was surprised to find Mukesh in it. Mukesh has done an excellent job.
  •  
    Dwarka Prasad Khambia As the whole building is constructed according to an ARCHITECTURE of an ENGINEER undre care of CONTRACTOR …..similarly in composition of songs MUSIC DIRECTOR may be like an ENGINEER and ARRANGER may be like a contractor. …..l think so !
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Chandu Kalejee i am sorry I was to post Husn Jab Jab Ishque se takaragaya–and posted a wrong song. So very sorry. I am correcting it. Please pardon the mistake.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Thanks Chandubhai. You have so nicely highlighted some songs with variations from the original style of its MDs.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Very good @Partha Sarathi ji and Shailendra Vaidya ji. But if I am not wrong both of LP team looked after arrangements under KA. According to me from very beginning Pyarelal ji had been in-charge of arrangement independently. However our subject is team of Sebastian-Dattaram for SJ.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Some great MDs started their careers as arrangers and assistants and then became renowned MDs.
    Many people askthat what’s the difference between arranger and MD and why all arrangers could not become MDS.
    The basic point here is , with all due respect to the arrangers and musicians, the inbuilt natural talent and level and quality of creativity. There is no big difference of level but the consistency of level of quality of creativity makes them music directors.
    That was the reason why some Mds gave music in only few movies and continued to be an assistant or arrangers.
    Again the lady luck also play great role for getting break in this industry and there are some unfortunate arrangers/assistant who could not be successful. But they are of course a few.
    Again this is without prejudice and with due respect to all arrangers because their talents are par excellence without any doubt and they are always unsung heroes of music world.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Dwarka Prasad Khambia ji I am happy about a strong and beautiful building, but what about the buildings which collapsed .
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Thanks Sudarshanji. You are right that LP were assistant of KA in the beginning. Even Pyarelalji also worked as musician/arranger with many including SD. Apart from music director Pyarelalji was a master in arrangements too and even these days he is a mentor/ consultant of some present days MDs.
  •  
    Manoj Shukla My two pennies contribution……..I think Raj Chandarana has explained the arranger’s role succinctly in a nutshell. Being musicians themselves who had an exposure to western classical and understanding/writing notations were, I think a major advantage. Arrangers of note in the early days have mainly been individuals of Goanese background such as Chic Chocolate, Anthony Gonsalves and, of course, Sebastian ji. The latter, it is reputed also devised a way to notate the shritis (microtones) into the orchestration according to one article. Perhaps a reading of Naresh Fernandes’ “Taj Mahal Foxtrot” or a viewing of Ashok Rane’s documentary. “Anthony Gonsalves – The Music Legend” may throw interesting insights into the arranger’s role and evolution. I have only managed snippets from both these works!
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Now coming to Sebastian – Dattaram team, all members of our group are well aware that Sebastian was working as arranger of music section and Dattaram was arranger of rhythm/percussion.
    However Sebastian saab had basic inclination towards western music and later on learned Indian classical music. His creativity was mainly towards orchestration and therefore he never tried towards song composition independently.
    However Dattaram ji had Indian classical base with inclination towards song composition and therefore he became MD too.
    Like Sebastian – Dattaram team, SD/RD had a team of Manohari Singh and Maruti ji along with Basuji.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya It is said that Sebastian saab and Manohari ji were very perfectionists and were masters in western notations writing. One of the musicians told me once that Manohari ji never missed to write notations of even just two seconds music piece and to give it to a particular musician who had to play it. Such a perfectionist he was….!!!
  •  
    Raj Chandarana Manoj has mentioned a very informative book indeed. Taj Mahal Foxtrot . It outlines the Bombay Jazz Scene. Many Goan Musicians that entered the film industry created wonderful work.apart from ones already mentioned there was also Frank Fernand
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan A book called ‘Behind the curtain’ by Gregory Booth is very informative. It looks at many aspects of music production in the Hindi Film Industry with informative input by Shree Kersi Lord.

    Kersi Lord is an amazing music ‘arranger’ who have a Naushad a different sound in films like Saathi and Ganwaar. Kersi ji also arranged Madan Mohan jis ‘Tum Jo Mil Gaye Ho’.

    On a different slant, Nowadays, as I am working with Artists from the film industry with insights from musicians etc.. The word ‘programmer’ has taken over ‘arranger’. I myself recently composed and ‘programmed’ A Bollywood singers new album along with my music partner. In Mumbai, new kids nowadays are using Pro-Tools, Nuendo, Cubase etc with plug ins to ‘arrange’ music for Music ‘Directors’ like Preetam, Himesh etc..

    A MD may not be a composer. Just a mare director of music. Like a director of a film which he may not have written. The role in the west we know as Music Producer is the same as MD.

    From Wiki – music, an arrangement is a musical reconceptualization of a previously composed work. It may differ from the original work by means of reharmonization, melodic paraphrasing, orchestration, or development of the formal structure. Arranging differs from orchestration in that the latter process is limited to the assignment of notes to instruments for performance by an orchestra, concert band, or other musical ensemble. Arranging “involves adding compositional techniques, such as new thematic material for introductions, transitions, or modulations, and endings…. Arranging is the art of giving an existing melody musical variety”

  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan Also I know that a few average MDs who are connected to me in some ways (Don’t want to name) in the 90s/2000s who are not composers are credited on a few films as ‘Music By’. These people who I know cannot even play an instrument or compose. They are business men. One out of them was a great ‘arranger’ but could not create a tune and left to a famous 90s lyric writer to make the tune!
  •  
    Subhash Tiwari Composing a song is like giving birth to a baby, newborn. Original for the mother but still carrying genetic features of the ancestors or previous performers. Orchestration is a factual scripting of the vitals of this newborn, the hair, the head, the trunk, arms etc the way these are. Arranging is the dressing of this new born immediately or even after many years, applying hair oil or cream, foundation to the face, whether the neck will have a bow or a necklace, clothes and their colour etc. We have seen very pretty children dressed very badly and the other extreme of having ugly looking but very nicely dressed children.
  •  
    Kailash Mundra You being a Doctor, nicely described it Subhashji …
  •  
    Partha Sarathi Very informative discussion indeed.
  •  
    Chandu Kale Kaykay Chauhan what you have mentioned applies to a lot many. One only needs to see Sudeep Audio videos on YouTube to see what Da-Da-Da-Da stuff they send the arrangers (who are now programmers, since everything is digital, hardly any live instruments), who put in fillers, rhythm, interlude etc as they see fit within their set repertoires
  •  
    J.k. Mehta surprised to find Sumit Da keeping mum on a subject he is most suited to shed some light on.His silence is intriguing and killing as well.
  •  
    Arunprakash Rajagopalan Husn jab jab ishq se is a song from Neend hamari Khwab tumhare , not Dulhan ek ratki…..
  •  
    Jitendra Mehta Thanks a lot.A very useful discussion & informative too.
  •  
    Raviraj Chandra I totally agree with Subhash Tiwari ji. MDs like SJ are creators (like God ) and arrangers/assistants are there to provide the touch-up under the guidance of MDs
  •  
    Ashit Gogwekar Anil Mohile of famous Anil-Arun pair (Arun Paudwal – husband of Anuradha Paudwal, the singer) had once said in an interview that it is arranger who decides the type of instrument used and many times decides preludes and interludes as well; off course in consultation and approval of main MD, Anil Mohile was regular with Lata Mangeshkae stage programmes and has been assistant MD to S D Burman, R D Bueman, Madan Mohan and Hridaynath Mangeshkar. He died in sleep last year!
  •  
    Maruti Rao V What I can I say about this thread. One of the best, most thought provoking, brilliant, each writer excelling the other and the end result is mind blowing. We have inputs from musicians like Chandu Kale ji, Kaykay Chauhan ji and brilliant inputs and inclusive writings from Susim Mohanty ji, Partha Sarathi ji, Subash Subhash Tiwari ji, Raj Chandarana ji, Shailendra Vaidya ji,and others and the entire thread is enlightening. I am sure Sudarshan Pandey is delighted and will sure document this later after it is closed.
  •  
    Maruti Rao V Special mention should also be made of brilliant inputs by Shailendra Vaidya. Extraordinary indeed.
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan It would probably be a good idea to maybe start another thread on the in depth analysing of musical arrangements of Shankar-Jaikishan songs.

    Also another idea is to maybe start a thread on the difference between a Music Director and a composer.

  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Thank you Maruti ji. Basically as a music lover my interest and inclination is more towards musical instruments, tunes and orchestration as compared to lyrics and just out of interest and curiosity whatever I have read and discussed with experienced persons , I tried to share in this forum so that I can learn more from the inputs from members and knowledgeable persons as you have mentioned above .
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi I am in total agreement with Maruti Raoji’s observations.
    As KayKay Chauhan ji has suggested, another thread to analyze various compositions of SJ will, actually serve as a learning document for various fans and students of music.
    Sudarshanji, this may not be a bad idea to have an entire page dedicated to musical analysis of SJ’s music on the lines of Yeh mera geet…which is documentary of lyrics…!!
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Great idea Dharmaji ….!!!
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Yeh Mera Geet jeevan Sangeet is happening due to single minded dedication of our friend Sandeep Apte…and is now evolving into a great melting pot of various experts and followers of SJ-SH…on the lyrics side.
    A similar initiative on musical side would make our documentation complete from all perspectives…..Sudarshan Pandey ji .please deliberate on this idea.
    The best part is that, this thread has revealed the availability of ‘Guni Jan’ to make this endeavor worthwhile..
  •  
    Pradeep Kumar Gupta In Indian scenario of music making (especially film songs composition) it is believed that the music composer composes the melodic structure of the song (lyric). The harmonic structure also known as contrapuntal (counter melody or sometimes counter point harmony) is composed by the arranger who does have great knowledge of western classical and harmonic structure. An arranger composes the counter melody in the periphery of the main (lead) melodic structure (in olden days most of the songs were based on Indian classical ragas or raginies), for that he needs different types of musical instruments like bow strings (violin, viola, and cello), strings (guitar- acoustic, electric {Spanish and Hawaiian, base etc), wood winds like flute, key boards like harmonium, piano, organ, synthesizer and many more) and from rhythm section (both Indian as well as western rhythm instruments). Prelude, interludes and in some cases postlude of a song are composed by an arranger. It is believed that since the play back singing was introduced to Hindi film music, Sebastian D’souza, a music maestro, an ace piano and violin player, thorough gentle man like a saint has been considered as the best ever arranger not only by his audience and music lovers but also by the great musical figures from the film fraternity. The fans of SHANKAR-JAIKISHAN will be glad to know that Sebastian’s association with the duo has been the longest association till date from 1952 to 1975. So far arranger’s role is concerned, “obbligato” a special piece of music which becomes an integral part of the whole composition without which the natural effect of the song is felt missing. This obbligato is normally composed by an arranger barring a few exceptions when the instrumentalist himself played an obbligato sometimes apart from the written piece of music (once it happened with OP Nayyar during a song recording and the musician was paid an additional Rs1,000). Which piece of music, in what sequence on which instrument, in what pattern are a few questions, the main composer is not bothered about. I believe I have answered to the query. Rest will be added by more knowledgeable members who are ace musicians themselves like Chandu Kale Sir etc. Regards.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Pradeepji, that is an excellent and enlighteing essay on the role of an arranger.
    The question was, if Sebastian was working with so many composers, then why is it that SJ’s music had such richness in their music, Orchestra and the interludes etc…why was the same missing from other composers work.
    And, why did some of the music sounded so ordinary and some simply divine…?
    Does the arranger go beyond the brief of composers…Here, we shall restrict ourselves to SJ and the contemporary one’s with whom Sebastian Sir worked?
  •  
    Raj Chandarana Dharmaji the answer to your question is simple. A good arranger whilst working for various MDs would maintain each MDs style and signature. Otherwise music would all become one and rather boring Not as complicated as one would be lead to believe.
    Wouldn’t you agree?
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Dharmaji. Good question. I had expressed the same issue in this very post before…
  •  
    Dwarka Prasad Khambia I have read in some article that Sebastian has worked with LP too……is it write , dear resp. SJ buddies ?
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Raj ji I can’t but agree with you..! My question emanates from a line of thinking which attributes the entire credit of SJ’s genius to St Sebastian…
    I always believe that in that era of some phenomenal composers operating contemporary span..and even shared the arranger…only because:
    1. Confidence in their work and style.
    2. Had supreme faith in the integrity of the arranger
    3. Never needed to ape a fellow composers style.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Susim Mohanti ji, I agree with you, and posed the question merely to bring it back to centre stage of our discussion…!! As it started from that very point..!
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Dear friends, I am learning more and more after reading this thread and thanks to Susim Mohanty ji’s one comment in another thread which made me to initiate this, Which I will incorporate in a blog dedicated to SJ. J.k. Mehta ji our Sumit Mitra daa is not very regular on facebook that is why we are not getting his inputs but I hope many of us might have got the idea of an Arranger’s job.
    I am still curious to know about few weak/average/below average compositions of SJ as to how they (arrangers) are also to share the responsibility if they are praised for many of good work.
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan Just thinking – Sebastian and Dattaram were always credited as Assistants, not Arrangers in the films credits. An Assistants role would be different to an arrangers role.
  •  
    Rudradeep Bhattacharjee The history of HFM has to be radically re-evaluated and the arrangers (and musicians) given their due!
  •  
    Raj Chandarana I haven’t had much time to contribute to this thread but have managed to read quite a fair number of comments. There is some useful information here. KayKay if I was to take a guess why Sabastien and Dattaram were credited as Assistants then I would say that ‘ Assistant ‘ is a role more easily recognized but ‘ Arranger ‘ is a role not so clear . As we have been finding out in this thread.Most of us here are fairly well in the know , even then we are struggling with what An arrangers role exactly is.
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan Also in those days in the 60s, The word Arranger has cropped up in film titles. Kersi Lords name being the prominent one. Also Jai Parte being another arranger for Kalyanji-Anandji before Viju Shah took over in the 80s. K-A’s music sounded so different in the 80’s due to Viju Shah’s involvement. Sonik was also credited as ‘arranger’ for Madan Mohan Ji and Usha Khanna. My belief is that S-J had a massive say in arrangement style, instrumentation, harmonics, and finish hence needed an ‘assistant’ to help them, rather than just give it to an ‘arranger’ and let him do what he wants and then have the final say.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Kaykay ji, you have finally hit the nail on its head…!! SJ were masters in their craft, in totality…!
    Sebastian may have contributed initially..but later on, he too..was mastered…! And Sebastian a saintly and loyal person that he was…never allowed his craft to be shared with other composers…
    But, the same may not be said about the other assistant…who switched his loyalties…!!
  •  
    Rudradeep Bhattacharjee Kersi Lord used to insist on a separate title as Arranger. But even then he did not get it always. The arrangers were always all credited as assistants, whether it was Chic Chocolate or Manohari Singh.
  •  
    Padmanabh Joshi Sebastian never worked with LP as Pyarelalji himself is an excellent arranger.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi You are absolutely right Dr Padmanabhji…! That beings us to the point, who from SJ camp worked with LP…?
  •  
    Dwarka Prasad Khambia Kaykay chouhanji…in context with the above…One thing more , SONIK(OMI)JI had also worked as an assistant to ROSHAN.
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan Dharma Kirthi ji. I think it was Dattaram who assisted L-P in Bobby.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi YES….!!!Kaykay ji…!!!
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan Shashikant-Gorakh were the ‘assistants’ to L-P as Pyrelal was the ‘arranger’. My good freind playback singer Mangal Singh worked with L-P around the 1991-94 mark. I will try and get some insight from him in terms of Shashikant and Gorakhs roles.
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan I also believe Naresh Sharma was the ‘arranger’ for Nadeem-Shravan. Naresh Sharma’s son is the Aashqui 2 Composer Mithoon. Amar Haldipur was another noted Arranger who I think worked for Nusrat Ji’s Hindi films in the 90s.
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan Uttam Singh had his stamp all over as an arranger in Raamlaxmans ‘Rajshree films’. Uttam Singh also arranged Naushad ji’s last film ‘Taj Mahal’ I think in 2005.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Sudarshan ji, the answer to your question of’ why some substandard stuff came out despite the presence of Dattaram…in later years of SJ…Although it is not in black and white…but, what is available here corroborates many undocumented stories…!
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Kaykay ji, it will indeed throw a great deal of light on how the assistants and arrangers worked.
    Gorakh was Pyarelal’s brother.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Amar Haldipur, who partnered Utpal..for a few films can also throw a lot of light..on the role of these ‘benam’ artists behind the scene…!
  •  
    Kaykay Chauhan I will also talk to a few friends in the Music Industry who are musicians. I will also talk to a few playback singers I know when I get a chance. Kumar Sanu may add some light to this when I talk see him again in a few months time. He would I guess only have experiences from the all the 90s MDs like Anu ji, N-S, Jatin Lalit and Anand Milind but will try for sure of the 90s/2000’s roles of MDs/Arrangers/Assistants.
  •  
    Dwarka Prasad Khambia And dear Kirthi,….who is this SHASHIKANTJI ?….once l have read that farher of famous singer ANURADHA PODHAWAL was also an arranger of LP.Is he the same ?
  •  
    Maruti Rao V Manohar Vittal ji has confirmed that Dattaram was assistant to LP and he has seen and talked to him when LP was signed to give music for a Kannada film in 80’s for which Manohar ji wrote lyrics.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Dwarka bhai, I have no clue about Shashikant…!
  •  
    Dwarka Prasad Khambia Kaykay Chauhanji…..Pyarelalji(Laxmikant) once said in his interview( at vividh bharati) that one of his brother is a arranger of MD-NADEEM SHRAWAN…….probably he may be Naresh Sharma because the surname of Pyarelalji is also Sharma.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Sudarshanji, about your question about some average composition of SJ (and for that matter it applies to all great MDs ) the logic can be like this. The creativity in any form of art (like music or design or painting or lyrics writing , gazal etc) is based on mood and spark in an artist and he has different phase of mood and and like a sportsman, he also passes through a lean patch . So for a musician also it applies . That might be the logic for some weak composition. Also pressure of work might leads to mental fatigue which hampers the quality. It is next to impossible for any artist to give all products par excellence.
    So in such case what an arranger can do? Still sometime we see some interesting pieces of interludes or counter melodies in an average song too because of efforts of arranger/assistant.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey My question is about the Asstts, Arranger and not SJ……….Shailendra Vaidya ji. On this particular subject and he told it is difficult to differentiate about role of a music director, arranger, assistants to MDs or set a LoC that is why only the fours -Sebastian, SJ and Dattaram would have been the right persons to answer this because the responsibilities, the name and fame or criticism should be shared by the team of 4s keeping the supremacy of SJ, the music directors duo.
    It is known that both of SJ, particularly Shankerji would demonstrate even music pieces, the length and timing of few pieces on his harmonium which Sebastian ji would write.
  •  
    Shailendra Vaidya Sudarshanji, I had added , after editing, one para above which covers your curiosity.
    I feel that assistant/arranger can not be held responsible for a basically weak tune. Otherwise a good arranger can make any average MD as great one.They can try to improve it but if it is a dry or weak tune in itself then why he should be blamed.?
    The prime responsibility lies on MD himself.
  •  
    Chandu Kale Dwarka Prasad Khambia I believe Shashikant is Laxmikant’s brother.
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Btw…is it a coincidence that we are discussing about arrangers and assistants in the context of SJ only…?because if we notice, barring Sebastian and Dattaram, very very few discussions are held over arrangers and assistants of other music composers…even in their respective forums, except for say, Basu-Manohari in the RD context. so I guess the contribution of these two gentlemen in SJ’s career must have been significant…
  •  
    Jitendra Mehta Pl. all gentle men , it is my humble open ion that SJ’s team was unique: SJ & Dattaram & Sebestian sir.As a team work it was matchless! Even though each & everybody had his role, place & space to play. With SH there is np team like this up till now! Sebestian sir was par excellance no doubt., without which the team is not complete! But MD is parent of music! & SJ were SJ!! For them music was not bread& butter but breath, blood & bowl!! Their marvellous, unique & sweet tunes require only decoration! With due respect to Sebestian sir l have to say that he entered the, team at the time of ‘Dag.’ Before that great SJ had given a series of musically hit films : A blockbuster Barsat & globally fame Aavara, then Badal,Kalighata, Nagina, Poo am & Parbat !!
  •  
    Pradeep Kumar Gupta Dear Dharma Sir, very good question you have asked. There is a Puna Music Society run by the Parsee Community. Once a documentary on the human factors in making film music was screened there. I was also among audience. Famous musician and arranger of yesteryears Kersi Lord and Enoch Daniel were the chief guests of the event. When asked by some one Mr. Lord explained that the arranger makes all arrangements as asked by the main composer and creates magic. Enoch Daniel also nodded his head to approve this. It was the same Kersi Lord who had worked with all great composers of his time including Naushad Ali for whom he did arrangement in Saathi, and just listen to the soulful tune. The result was mesmerizing. It was the same Kersi Lord who did arrangement for Rafi Saab’s famous song.”tum jo mil gaye ho”-Hanste Jakhm for Madan Mohan and it was the same Kersi Lord who made the prelude and interlude of “Roop tera mastana” – Aaradhana” for great S.D. Burman but the same Kersi Lord couldn’t create any magic with the sound track of a famous comedy film by Kundan Shah-“Jaane bhi do yaaron” for the composer Vanraj Bhatia. He is the same Vanraj Bhatia who graduated from Trinity College of Music, London with gold medal. But because of the poor melodic structure the arranger like Kersi Lord couldn’t repeat the same magic, what he is known for otherwise. I think you have got the message, what exactly I intend to convey. Sebastian D’souza before joining the film industry in Mumbai was a piano and violin player at a hotel in Lahore. It was OP Nayyar who saw him there playing at the hotel and brought him down to Mumbai and introduced him to the industry. SJ started their career as independent composers in somewhere around 1947-48 and their first soundtrack was released with the debuting film “Barsaat ” in 1949. Sebastian joined the duo in 1952 after Sunny Castelino left the SJ team. The name of Sebastian was suggested by Sunny Castelino only. Sebastian in one of his interviews candidly said that he enjoyed the most with SHANKAR-JAIKISHAN. I feel the thread is getting stretched out of proportion. So in nut shell Sebastian’s skill of arrangement also owed to the melodic structure of SJ if SJ owe a lot to Sebastian (as many people claim). Perhaps much better than the melodic structures of other contemporaries, and this is the secrete why my elder brother Dharma Bhai is an ardent fan of SHANKAR-JAIKISHAN.
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Pradeep Kumar ji, I dont think, any one would have answered my question better than what you have done my dear friend..!! I have this infinite devotion to SJ, but I am as much a person, with an open mind..hence, it always baffled me, when people would say , what they say, as you have mentioned about credits being given..Sebastian ji etc.. I have tremendous respect for Sebastian ji, for his skills and more for his integrity as a craftsman..!! As you have mentioned in your concluding lines.. they SJ and Sebastian jelled exceptionally to create all those magical melodies, which sound new even today..and without the help of sophisticated sound engineering…The essence and key was the “Melodic Structure” which is the Janani and Sutra of a song..!! the genesis and soul..!! everything else is accompaniment.. which enhances this structure..!! Thanks a ton my dear friend..!!
  •  
    Chandu Kale Kudos to Pradeep Kumar Gupta for such a complete answer.
    9 hrs · Unlike · 4
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi Ditto Chandu ji..!!
    9 hrs · Unlike · 1
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Very well defined Pradeep bhai……… Maan gaye…………..you have very rightly elaborated and summed up this thread. I believe after your views, there is no scope for any more addition in this thread.
    41 mins · Like · 1
  •  
    Dharma Kirthi So we may have a classic Alap by Rafi-Lata…from a very high pitch to show up ‘The End’..

Actor Pran’s refusal to accept Film Fare Award – A discussion.

This discussion took place on one of the facebook groups on Shankar-Jaikishen. That is also made available here for information and knowledge of fans of Shanker-Jaikishan as well as other music lovers. Few of the information shared here are very authentic.

the thread is available on

https://www.facebook.com/groups/660525137354915/

—————————————————————————

 

Raj Chandarana (the member who initiated this thread)

Pran( actor) v Shankar v Late Ghulam Mohammed v Filmfair committee controversy.

Recently I came across some information about a situation i was not aware of. The incident , of course, happened but the documentation regarding the incident was a little unscrupulous . I have managed to obtain a copy of Pran Saabs Biography and in it the incident is clearly discussed ove a whole chapter.
It was the time when Pran saab had rejected a Filmfair Award for Best Supporting Actor …

Continue Reading

 
  •  
    K Satischandra Shenoy Raj Ji,
    I heard about this briefly, and indirectly. But your mail gives out full details, so that we can understand the real incident.
    Thanks
    K S Shenoy
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Why just pakeezah? There are a couple of other similar controversies too. My submission is that there are also instances in the 60s and in the 70s where SJ’s better music has been overlooked in favour of others…in the end, it is karma and everything evens out…But I feel that awards or no awards, SJ will always remain the emperors.
  •  
    Rajan Bedke Music of both the films was fantastic. They could share the Award.
  •  
    Raj Chandarana Susim Mohanty , In your recollections did any one stand up to those injustices against SJ
  •  
    Susim Mohanty No Sir. I don’t think so…
  •  
    Raj Chandarana Thank you for the info though
  •  
    Kishore Pasupuleti Raj Raj Chandarana ji. Thanks for the effort you have put in and bringing the letter to light as promised.. I have few comments to make

    Let me start by saying that pran sahab is one of the most admired and respected actors I believe to be in HM industry.

    I do not know why he chose to protest and that too his maiden protest for this incident, as you have already posted your comment, does pran sahab believed that there were no injustices done in any of the earlier instances?

    As a matter of fact though the whole world acknowledge the songs from few of RK films and filmfare didn’t bother to honour those songs,movies
    If we start picking up then there cud be any no of instances like that. I do not know what good he has done to the issue on hand but he has done irreparable damage to the respect and name of SJ which I personally would criticise it. Let me hasten to add. This statement is made not as a fan of their music but a normal listener.

    On His stance of ‘principles’ …May be he should have applied them to all and not selectively to -that too only once in his lifetime- SJ, some how the logic beats me

  •  
    Raj Chandarana Kishore Pasupuleti ji
    In my view ,Firstly we all have certain things that we stand up for in life. Whether it be views of political parties, or injustices handed out wherever or whenever. It is a personal thing we do as humans with some values.
    In this particular case , Pran Saab was being awarded a trophy and having a view point that some injustice was being done to Late Ghulam Mohammed he saw it fit to make his feelings known. On other incidents he may not have been in a position to make such a statement. I can not comment on those. But let us not loose sight of the fact that Pran Saab was great friends with Shankar and that didn’t change and as far as I am aware Shankar had no ill feelings towards Pran Saab . In fact it took great courage for Pran Saab to stand up against his friend on this one occasion and say that the music of Pakeezah was indeed deserving . Look at the flip side if Ghulam Mohammed was alive at the time he may have been awarded the trophy over Shankar. It is the Policy of the Awards committee not to honour dead people. Pran Saab saw that as the injustice .
    As Indians we afford our dead the greatest respect .

    As far as damaging Shankars career there after , well I’m afraid Raj Kapoor has 100% claim on that . when he switched to LP. Raj Kapoor turned his back on a life long friend , which gave others license to do the same.

  •  
    Partha Sarathi Awards are never the yardstick to judge the quality and the majesty of any music compositions of any music director–be it SJ or Ghulam Mohammed. The passing time would decide the lasting effects of a quality music from which a discerning music lover can judge what is good and what is mediocre–arguments about controversies never lead us anywhere because each person carries his own opinion depending upon one’s judgement–let us leave it here
  •  
    Susim Mohanty As an aside, even Nobel Prize winners and Olympic medalists have refused to accept their honour… principles and self belief do matter to people. Pran saab was just exercising his…such things cannot change destiny. SJ were destined to the greatest and will remain so…controversy or no controversy…
  •  
    Raj Chandarana Partha Sarathi ji
    I am in agreement with you. The quality of the music be judged by time and time alone. May I then ask .. In your opinion as a music and NOT SJ fan. .. With the passing of some 40 years now , if you were to go out on the streets of Mumbai and mention just two words to a passer by .. Inhi logone.. and asked which film , will you get an immediate answer Pakeezah ? . Mention .. jai bolo, Yeh rakhi… Patla Patla … How many will say Be- Imaan???
    Like you say time will judge what is good and what is acceptable and what is totally unforgettable .
    I am not judge here I merely posted some interesting findings.
  •  
    Raj Chandarana Susim Mohanty
    Well said. SJ have their place in history. That history is balanced with good And the controversial .That is why they have stood the test of time.
  •  
    Susim Mohanty You are right, Rajji…and they will always… Amen to that…
  •  
    Lakshmi Kanta Tummala SJ music sounds so fresh and timeless even after their debut over sixty five years ago. To think that even after their demise several years ago, we are still discussing and enjoying their music today is testimony in itself about their immense and incomparable popularity.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Dear Raj Chandarana ji, I would say only one thing, If Pran Sahab would have said that there were many films and songs who deserved more than Be-Iman, I myself would have supported his intention, but by mentioning one film he also showed that he was too biased and he wanted to pressurise the organizers.
    To prove my point I would request everyone here to go to the other contenders for this award who, in my view, deserved more than Pakeezah.
    I am not against Pakeezah music, but please imagine Pakeejah and its music was released within 3-4 years of its making started and I am sure, it would have been weaker contender of the Award. Since at time of its music release, the scenario of Hindi Film Music was changed and modernized, Pakeezah’s songs sounded sweet and peaceful and that went in its favour. Even then its songs were not as much received by every section of listeners in comparison to songs of Hare Rama Hare Krishna, which was one of the Smash Hits albums of the year. I am not advocating for Be-Imaan though.
  •  
    Raj Chandarana On the contrary sir, if Pran shahab had in fact said there were great many soundtracks who deserved the nomination than Be-Imaan , then he would have indicated a total biased against Be-Imaan. But selecting one he thought to be as good or little better showed that he was exercising his opinion as to which deserved the trophy from the two.
    However all we do here is speculate . I’m sure differences of opinion will remain from both sides.

    We all support things we are fund of and in doing so don’t feel we are biased. As is the case with Pran Sahab. He supported what he felt right at the time and probably didn’t think he was biased .

  •  
    Raviraj Chandra Pran sahab should have protested when Ravi was given FF award for GHARANA ignoring SJ for JIS DESH ME GANGA BEHTI HAI that year.
  •  
    Raj Chandarana He may have , we will never know. In the case of discussion here – he was being awarded a trophy for best supporting actor for Be- Imaan and by the very act of rejecting the trophy , his protest was elevated. Had he objected if not being a trophy, this matter may never have come to light.
  •  
    Raviraj Chandra At that time many people (filmy & non-filmy ) criticised FF for this but Pran was not one of them as far as I remember
  •  
    J.k. Mehta You Mr Raj Chandran came to know about this controversy a bit late.To the old timers like me it has been a well known episode.Not only Beiman Shankerji got best MD award for Pehchan also and it too was as less deserved as the award fo rB eiman.Shankerji’s Pehchan was pitted against musically rich films of RD Burman[Kati Patang]Kalyanji Anandji who had given hits like Sachha Jhutha,Purab Aur Paschim;Geet,LP whose Aan Milo Sajna,Khilona and Madan Mohan[Heer Ranjha but taking advantage of skewed system of Filmfare nominations Shankarji managed to win the best MD award both times.Rather SJ created a record of sort by scoring a hat trick[The First Ever by a Hindi film MD]But before we criticise Shankerji for these awards I personally find them as a sort of Poetic Justice done to him for the two glaring and most unfair denial of the best MD award to SJ in 1960 when putting aside the centuries one of the best musical score of Jis Desh Men Ganga Bahti Hai filmfare chose a musically weal film like Gharana and gave Ravi Saheb the best music director.s award.Again SJ were unceremoniously ignored for their out of the world music of Sangam and the best MD award in 1964 was given to LP for Dosti though musically Dosti indeed was very close to Sangam and the disparity between the two movies was not as glaring as it was between JDMGBH and Gharana.
  •  
    Kishore Pasupuleti I personally would rate Pakeezah better then be-imaan ..that is not being defended..Our point is he should have continued his principled stand of protest atleast for record sake for all the wrong awards ….even if we take 1973..how about heroin hemamalini for Seeta aur geeta or best director..or best actor to..Manoj vs rajesh khanna in amarprem..best lyrics to beimaan vs amarprem shor pakeezah..or probable many others Shall we assume Pran saheb was convinced of all other awardees of that year..? or in the year 1967 and 1969 when he was awarded FF??…The only protest he made in his life time is for this award..thats why his logic beats me…. Raj Chandarana ji has a point on RK getting all of 100% credit and exclusive rights for leaving the hand of a friend when it was required the most..
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey J.k. Mehta ji, I differ from you. You can’t say anyone superior or inferior to Pehchaan. In those days I was regular reader of Screen then and HMV had introduced to honour music of such albums which were the highest sold albums by awarding Platinum Records. Pehchaan was one of them and probably first such album to get this honour. No doubt music of other films which you have mentioned were also very popular, hit and hot cakes, but Pehchaan was also not behind anyone. Its only shortcoming was Manoj Kumar being in lead otherwise except one film Geet other films were most familiar for Rajesh Khanna being in lead. Geet, I don’t think was a danger to Pehchaan.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey And if it was in hands of Shankerji and or SJ to procure music awards for their film, why should they have left other years gone without an award to them ?
  •  
    J.k. Mehta Pandeyji,to each his perception.I wrote as I felt and you did the same.Others may have still different views so let the discussions be academic.None of us are privy to inside and intimate details of the goings on of Filmfare nominations.We can only hazard a guess.Sometime back’as I recall.some one wanted to know-on this very space as to who was behind the selection of Beiman as the best film for music and one of our facebook colleagues subtly hinted at Manoj Kumar but it was not so.Manoj Kumar could never manage a FF award for best MD for any of his films including Roti Kapda Aur Makaan which was released during Emergency and Manoj K had very good political connections and reach to the political masters of those times,.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey You are absolutely right
  •  
    Raj Chandarana J.k.Metha ji. I’m sorry I can not apologise for my lack of years . As much I wished I was born 30 years earlier , it was not in my destiny. However in my lack of years , I have made a great effort to preserve what little I can, whilst I struggle to gather information , fortunate ones such as yourself lived through that time and I can not compete with that.
  •  
    Susim Mohanty As my previous comment in the thread said…It was karma…. JK Mehtaji used the phrase ‘poetic justice’ to the same effect…In the end, destiny dictates. ..
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey I too feel it, Destiny also plays a role…
  •  
    Subhash Baberwal I personaly feel when we are assembly of dedicated fans of SJ discussion on such issues is ill concieved and irrelevant.b, cause it hurts our sentiment.we gather here to entertain aswell as enlightening us.
  •  
    Lakshmi Kanta Tummala Subhashji, only through healthy discussions with fellow SJ buddies can we “enlighten” ourselves and be educated.
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Subhash Baberwal ji, we need to be equipped with such information so that we can share our knowledge with other persons who is having some doubts about few of the matters related to SJ. So please dont get hishearted. It is also essential
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Rightly said Pandeyji and Lashmiji. Such topics need to be discussed so that controversies and misinformation are put to rest. As it is, there are enough and more floating around…
  •  
    Lakshmi Kanta Tummala Bang on, Susimji..!
  •  
    Awadhesh Narayan Bajpai Us samay film fare patrika bahut lokpriya thhee aur uske paathkon ki salaah kaa bhi film fare awards me yogdaan rahtaa thhaa. baakaaydaa ek farm bhar kar paathak bhejte thhe jisme fav. hero heroine md prod. directors, aadi fim se jude sabhi logon ke naam hote thhe .usee adhaar par beimaan ke sangeet ko film fare award mila thhaa .beiman ke gane lokpriyataa me kahin kamtar/less popular nahi thhe.mujhe praan saaheb dwara utthaye gaye is vivaad se badaa dukh huaa thhaa.
  •  
    Raj Chandarana Subhash Baberwal ji
    If you are so well enlightened about SJ then I’m happy very happy for you. Maybe you can share something positive! For the the likes myself and others who will carry the SJ torch forward , we need to interact with the seniors so we can learn from their experience. Most of them fortunate to have lived through the golden period. May I add nothing is irrelevant. There is always something to be learnt from discussions like this. I guess if one finds posts not to their taste there is the option to pass on to other posts.
  •  
    Raj Chandarana I forgot to add Subhash Baberwal ji , this group is for discussion only . So that’s what happens here… We discuss!! Songs and entertainment on other SJ groups.
  •  
  •  
    J.k. Mehta I can understand that Rajji and would never like you to be apologetic about that,Births are accidental things-they happen;they are not planned.Left to me I would have liked to be born even after you to stay young but as I said someone up above plans these things.I admire your love for SJ and curiosity of knowing even the smallest details about them including controversial ones like this Beiman incident.regards
  •  
    Satyaban Ukil Pran Saab was absolutely right. Song’s of Pakeezah was much better than that of Beimaan. Now the point raised that since Ghulam Md. was not considered since he expired by that time. But how the judges ignored Amar Prem ?
  •  
    A Surendra Naath As a SJ fan, I cannot agree with Pran sab’s contention. It appears to be a perverted thinking since it does not correlate with an award for supporting actor and music director as there is no connection at all!!
  •  
    Raj Chandarana A A Surendra Naath ji Pran Sahabs protest was against the Awards committee . The connection is the Committee.
  •  
    Kasargod Satish Mallaya As far as I can remmember ,when No 2 nominattion of Ravi for the film Gharana (1961) was selected overlooking No 1 nomination of S-J for Jish Mein Ganga Behti Hai , the reason given was that S-J had won the award for the previus two consecutive years for Anari in 1959 and Dil Apna Aur Preet Parai in 1960
  •  
    Maruti Rao V What a poor argument by the FF Kasargod Satish Mallaya ji and in the bargain a musical score which was a milestone achievement in the career and a musical score of the 20th century of SJ gets ignored.
    23 hrs · Like · 2
  •  
    Chandu Kale Another example was ‘Dosti’ getting preference over ‘Sangam’. Even Pyarelal ji says ‘Mujhe Sangam ke gaane pasand the’. That award was won by the machinations of a middleman called Arora. He had gone to SJ saying that he can ensure an award, but Shankar said their job in Sangam was so good that the award will automatically come. Then he went to LP and charged them 35000 to do the job, which consisted in buying all issues of Filmfare, remove the nomination form, send it to people, promising them a ticket for the upcoming LP nite if they nominated LP. (My friend had got this, but he refused as he did not like Dosti). SJ were annoyed and decided to take badla, which was done in the case Beimaan. Shankarji had expressed his anger to my accordion guru ‘ये क्या तरीक़ा है? हम भी ऐसा कर सकते हैं । After the Beimaan award, he just told him मैंने कहा था याद है ना? And you what weak, silly excuse FF gave? That LP’s progress was more impressive and they wanted to encourage a new team. Oh yeah? Then why didn’t Usha Khanna get it for Dil deke Dekho? That was a tremendous hit.
  •  
    Susim Mohanty Chanduji…that’s an explosive revelation…
  •  
    Sudarshan Pandey Baap re baap……. Kya Shanker ji, log youn hi naheen aap SE darte aur jalte the. Unhe maloom thaa ki Jaikishan ji bhale chup rah jaayein lekin aap unki Eento Ka jawaab patthar SE de sakenge.
    17 hrs · Like · 1
  •  
    Sonu Kumar Sorry to say but I dont think Shankar could have done so on his own. Beimaan won 7 Awards out 8 nominations in dozen or so relevant categories so it was totally sweep by Beimaan. so is it right to say that Shankar was responsible for awards in all categories for Beimaan ?? or was it Sohan lal kanwar ? Will Shankar not play it safe and work for Best music award, why bother about other categories ?

    if SJ had to influence awards they would have done every time but FACT REMAINS SJ never won a ward for Greatest showman – Raj kapoor. What could be better proof then this ? Could raj kapoor not get them a award .

  •  
    Sonu Kumar BTW Pyarelal has been very honest, he has admitted in an interview that they manipulated awards. the amt he quoted IMO was Rs 50,000. Why Awards, BGM was also influenced by their cheap tactics, they tried to beat SJ in BGM and in orchestration too. See More
  •  
     

Shankar-Jaikishan Fans Association (international) formed in Hyderabad

sjsjsj

 

A Message from the President of SJFA

 

Dear SJ Fans,

The Shankar Jaikishan Fans Association was formed to bring together all SJ fans for the sole purpose of promoting and propagating SJ music for future generations to learn and enjoy. The association is based on a love for SJ music with mutual respect for one another. It was registered in Hyderabad as a formal entity and it is my honor and privilege to serve as your president.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow once said, “Music is the universal language of mankind,” and he is absolutely right, because music transcends all national barriers. It touches us emotionally where words can never do. SJ music is a fine example of that. On my travels aboad, quite frequently, I have been aproached by strangers who would come up to me and express their love of SJ music even though they couldn’t understand a word of it..! That’s how powerful their music is..!!

They say, “Good music does not have an expiration date” and it is so true with SJ music. Therefore, we need to make it available for future generations to experience and appreciate it.

The Executive Committee has chalked out the following goals and objectives to be met during our three year term:

1. Create a website, primarily, for sharing material related to SJ and their music as well as pertinent information regarding the association and it’s activities. (Soon to be launched).

2. Prepare a data base for the membership. (In the works).

3. Conduct monthly internet-radio programs. The first one was held on April 26, 2014 and another on May 31, 2014. (Goal met).

4. Help facilitate the creation of satellite associations in cities with a higher concentration of SJ fans. A satellite association is being formed in Visakhapatnam. (Goal met).

5. Monthly electronic newsletter. (In the works).

6. Provide scholarships to music students. (Exploring).

7. Organize concerts using local talent performing SJ music. (In the works). 

8. Conduct music contests featuring SJ music. (On the agenda).

With careful thinking, the Executive Committee felt it necessary to establish an annual membership fee of Rs. 500 to be used for the above mentioned purposes.

We seek your continued support since we are not in this alone and together, we will strive to accomplish our mission. So, dear buddies, please reach out for your check books and write that check (or you could transfer funds electronically) to support our activities in order to preserve the legacy of our music idols..! The bank account information for your membership dues payment is given below.

Thank you, Lakshmi Kanta Tummala President

 

Name of Bank: Andhra Bank             Branch: Saifabad, Hyderabad-500063 

    A/C No: 053311100001112       IFSC Code: ANDB00005333

     MICR Code: 500011040                Phone: 040-23421127/36

                   Fax: 040-23421133

Please inform our Treasurer, Sri. Dharma Kirthi either in his inbox, by a text message or Whatsapp, whenever you make a payment. This will enable him with easy book keeping. His contact information is as follows: 

Mobile: 9502616677 (please text him before calling the first time)      

Email: mdkirthi@gmail.com

          

 

SHANKAR JAIKISHAN IN THE EARLY FIFTIES WITH LATA MANGESHKAR AND RAAG BHAIRAVI

Written by Shri Shashibhushan Hegde

Crtsy-Sudarshan Talwarji

This photo courtesy; Sudarshan Talwar, Kolkata

               An ardent Shankar Jaikishan fan is invariably in love with the early fifties.  At least I am. 

                   Their compositions in the early fifties immediately remind us of the following things:

1.      Lots of Lata Mangeshkar (Films like Poonam, Aurat, Mayur Pankh, Kali Ghata etc feature Lata in each and every song!)
2.      Lots of Raag Bhairavi – SJ were so much influenced by the Raag and they brought out the glory of this ‘Sadasuhagan’ Raag like no one else has been able to do. (6 songs in Barsaat were in Bhairavi, 5 out of 9 songs in Aurat were in Bhairavi….these are just two examples)
3.      Very very rich in melody with minimal orchestration.
The orchestration for these songs was very limited considering the huge orchestra that SJ used during most of their lifetime.  These songs would have at the most half a dozen violins, mandolin, some times a Sitar or a Piano, flute and of course the glorious Dholak. 
Raag Bhairavi was employed in unbelievably wide range that is astounding.  They would come up with a sad song, a peppy song, a devotional song, a philosophical song……..all in Raag Bhairavi.
I am definitely not brash when I say Lata Mangeshkar’s career took off because of SJ.  There is no other composer who gave so many songs to her early in her career in the early fifties.
Presenting a few select songs in different moods and shades but all are based in Bhairavi and sung by Lata.
1.       Hum se na poochho koi pyar kya hai – Film: Kali Ghata(1951) Lyricist: Hasrat Jaipuri.
You haven’t heard this song if you haven’t heard the prelude of this song, which is GORGEOUS!  The Grand Piano prelude is definitely one of the finest of all time.  The mandolin, flute pieces and the Dholak stand out as usual.
2.       Taqdeer ka shikwa kaun kare – Film: Poonam(1952)  Lyricist: Hasrat Jaipuri.
If the previous song was a peppy one, this is an out and out sad song in Bhairavi. But what a composition! Years back, in 1988, HMV had brought out a 2 cassette set “All time Greats – Shankar Jaikishan).  This was the opening song of the album. (The first three songs that I am featuring in this article featured in that album)
The Sitar and violins pieces in the prelude and the fabulous couplet “Chand poonam ka khila…..” and the short mandolin link line that precedes the song create a totally apt ambiance for the song. Pay heed to the Dholak…..so much in sync with the singer.
                               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4KHi0wqYtE
3.      Mohabbat ki dastan aaj suno – Film: Mayur Pankh (1953), Lyricist: Hasrat Jaipuri
I would rate this as one of the best song ever written, composed and presented.  What a beauty in Bhairavi that depicts an ode of love.
This composition is as smooth as silk, as pure as milk and as delectable as honey!  The mandolin, harmonium, flute, minimal violins and the Dholak drift you off to the world of melodious trance in a jiffy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3nWQK7VaOY4. Ulfat ka saaz chhedo chanda suhana hai – Film: Aas (1953), Lyricist: Hasrat Jaipuri
A fabulous, evergreen beauty the tune of which has been copied by a Greek band years later!  Interestingly as in all songs in this category, the mandolin has an imposing presence in addition to the accordian and Dholak never fails to catch attention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLpC77POXi05. Ja ja ja re ja re ja – Film: Naya Ghar (1953), Lyricist: Shailendra
A song which I consider 24 carats of pure bliss! Look at the pace, speed and the pep the composition delivers.  The Dholak, mandolin, accordion compliment Lata word to word.  If there was ‘Happiness Quotient’ for songs, this would score 10 out of 10 – good enough to drift anyone into happiness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXEZg6aoJFM  

6 Mori bipda aan haro – Film: Pooja (1954), Lyricist: Shailendra

 Though rarely heard, this in my opinion is one of the finest bhajans created in film music.  By SJ standards, this is a very simple composition orchestration wise.  But the mimimalistic music with the flute, mandolin, Dholak and absolutely adorable tune along with Lata’s excellent rendering make this a really special song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYCYDHRgVwAThe tunes and music apart, it is the verses of Hasrat Jaipuri and Shailendra which have given tremendous value addition to these compositions as always.Though there are many dozens of songs that fall in to this category, I have chosen half a dozen covering different moods and shades, albeit the same Raag – the Sada suhagan ‘Bhairavi’ of which there was no better exponent than Shankar Jaikishan in Indian film music.

Simkie’s Choreography in the Awara Dream Sequence (Hindi, 1951)

Courtesy:  http://cinemanrityagharana.blogspot.in/2013/04/simkies-choreography-in-awara-dream.html

 

Simkie’s Choreography in the Awara Dream Sequence (Hindi, 1951)

When I first heard that Uday Shankar’s early dance partner Simkie choreographed the famous dream sequence in Awara (Hindi, 1951), I was quite surprised!  That song and dance sequence is one of the most iconic and well-known from the “golden era” of Hindi cinema.  But the real eye-opener was seeing that Simkie’s choreography is taken straight from the Uday Shankar playbook as evidenced by the dances in his 1948 dance film Kalpana (which we can now watch in full thanks to Pad.ma!).  A few sources had mentioned the influence of Kalpana on Awara‘s dream sequence before, but now we can see the evidence for our own eyes.  And what an influence; it’s direct and unmistakable!

Awara‘s dream sequence is comprised of three segments filmed in three different spaces which Gayatri Chatterjee in her National Award-winning book Awara sees as representing the “Earth-Hell-Heaven triptych.”  “Tere Bina Aag Yeh Chandni” is the name of the song for the first two segments (earth and hell) though some have listed the second hell segment as a separate song “Mujhko Chahiye Bahar.” “Ghar Aya Mera Pardesi” is the song for the last segment (heaven).

The “Earth” and “Heaven” Segments

In the first and last segments, the dancers’ graceful side-to-side movements, arm postures and trajectories, and hand gestures are clearly directly inspired by Shankar’s choreographies especially Kartikeya and Rasa Leela (click on the links to watch them inKalpana), and these movements are echoed in the “dancing” by lead Nargis as well.  The arm movements the dancers are performing at the beginning of the clip below be seen in Amala Shankar’s Manipuri dance, and the spins at 6:24 are also seen identically in Kalpanain a few places.

Left: Awara   Right: Kalpana     Could it be any more obvious!

Instead of doing a comparison video, I’ve displayed the dream sequence videos below and linked to or described the inspirations in this post.  The first segment runs til 1:07, and the last segment starts at 2:46.  Note: The official clip below leaves out the two-minute introduction featuring some imaginative set design and the introduction of the dancers; the whole dream sequence in its entirety can be viewed here.

Isn’t the “South Indian” vibe of Nargis’ dance posing and costume starting at 5:32 interesting!  I wish more footage had been included since the Bharatanatyam/Kuchipudi inspiration is obvious and would have added a third “style” of choreography to the dream sequence.  The giant Nataraja statue provided the perfect background!


“Hell” Segment
 

The middle segment in which Raj Kapoor’s character descends into “Hell” dramatically shifts the style of choreography from slow-paced grace to aggressive, forceful movements, but they are still taken straight from Shankar’s creative style and are a testament to his ability to express varied emotions and ideas.  The wide half-seated posture, back and forth movements, and finger-spread hand shimmies all have direct parallels in movements seen in Kalpana particularly the Naga tribal dance and Astra Puja/Sword Dance.

While I had shown in my last post that the “finger-spread hand shimmies” as I’m calling them had inspiration from Kathakali dance from southern India, another blogger made a very interesting connection to another likely source of inspiration: Kecak dance from Bali, Indonesia. The similarities are obvious in not only the individual dance movements but also the way the group is spatially arranged.  I became convinced of this connection after reading that Uday Shankar had visited Indonesia to observe its indigenous dance forms in 1935.  In excerpts from Shankar’s diary about the trip, “Ketchok” is among the dances he notes watching in addition to “kabbiyar, “lagon,” “krish,” and “Wayang Koolit” shadow-puppet play (Abrahams).  Intriguingly, Shankar mentions having dinner with Mr. Spiers.  I wonder if “Mr. Spiers” is a mispelled reference to “Walter Spies” who supposedly was instrumental in popularizing Kecak dance in the 1930s!

Here is a cinematic view of the Kecak dance in the film Baraka.  Shankar’s inspiration is obvious!

The Making and Themes

Awara‘s dream sequence reportedly took three months to shoot and was not formally planned until mid-shooting.  The sets were designed by M.R. Achredkar and a chemist was hired to create the “cloud effect” with dry ice.  Some sources note the sequence’s ideas were inspired from some Hollywood musicals of the time (the dream sequence in An American in Paris was allegedly one), but Kalpana gives plenty of set design inspiration all on its own with the grandiose objects, flames, and smoke columns.  And by the way–there are a few sources, including The Hindu, who incorrectly cite Zohra Segal as the choreographer for the dream sequence!

Thematically, the book Global Bollywood: Travels of Hindi Song and Dance gives an interesting perspective on the meaning behind the sequence:

“Integrating narrative and lush spectacle, this scene condenses the themes of the film and prefigures the ending. At the same time, it functions as a metacomment on popular filmmaking with its amalgam of”art” and “kitsch” and marks a transition in narrative modes–from romantic realism to melodrama.  Through visual icons and “universal” signifiers, such as a staircase that leads in one direction to an idyllic world represented by a tower set amid fluffy clouds and in another to a hell represented by flames and grotesque statues, the sequence captures in shorthand the social gap that separates the principals and the various conflicts encountered by the hero. Its innovative use of space, perspective, and the movement of bodies visually realizes Awaara’s critique of the existing social order as the hero plaintively cries, “Mujhko yeh narak na chahiye; mujhko phool, mujhko geet, mujhko preet chahiye” [I don't want this hell; I want flowers, I want music, and I want love], even while it relocates this critique in the individual.”

Dancers – The Little Ballet Troupe, and Helen!
I was very surprised to read in Chatterjee’s book that the dancers in the dream sequence were from Shanti Bardhan’s Little Ballet Troupe!  Shanti Bardhan was part of Uday Shankar’s Center in Almora for a few years before striking out on his own, performing with the Indian People’s Theater Association (IPTA), and then forming his own Little Ballet Troupe in 1952.  Another surprise find about the dream sequence: famous Cabaret film dancer Helen was supposedly among the background dancers in what would be her first screen appearance!  Can anyone spot her?
Uday Shankar’s Influence on Film Dance
While it has been thrilling to see the impact Uday Shankar had on one of the most well-known songs in Hindi cinema, his influence was not restricted to Awaraalone.  V.A.K Ranga Rao in his article “Dance in Indian Cinema” reveals that Shakar’s influence on 1950s and 60s film dance was “immeasurable.”  While Shankar’s only film Kalpana was an unsuccessful flop, his influence on film dance spread through the students and dancers that worked with him during the making ofKalpana and earlier at his novel training Center in Almora.  These dancers “received the kind of allround training that was unthought of in [the] Indian dance world” until then and many of them became “independent choreographers” and worked in cinema spreading “the Uday Shankar turn of limb, taste of aesthetics around” not only in choreography but also visual presentation.  Among them, Narendra Sharma, Sachin Shankar, Zohra Segal, Guru Dutt, and more all choreographed for films.  Researching their work in films seems to have proven Ranga Rao’s assertion true which I’ll be highlighting in future posts. It seems Shankar’s influence on cinema through his trainees is a subject that hasn’t received much attention…making it an ideal research project for yours truly!  I’m also happy to be covering Hindi cinema which doesn’t get much exposure on this blog. :)

Sources:

Abrahams, Ruth Karen.  The Life and Art of Uday Shankar.  PhD Dissertation.
Bardhan, Gul.  Rhythm Incarnate: Tribute to Shanti Bardhan.
Chatterjee, Gayatri.  “The Hero’s Fears and Nightmares.”  Awara.
Encyclopaedia Brittanica. Encyclopaedia of Hindi Cinema.
Gopal, Sangita and Sujata Moorti.  Global Bollywood: Travels of Hindi Song and Dance.
Ranga Rao, V.A.K.  “Dance in Indian Cinema.”   Rasa: The Indian Performing Arts in the Last Twenty-five Years.

Bin dekhe aur bin pehchaane : A discussion

 

 

My first day in Cairo… I head down to breakfast at the hotel I am staying in… I start to eat and suddenly my attention drifts to the tune being played. It sounds familiar and I recognise it. It is this song! Did not know that this sing was originally an Arabic song

http://youtu.be/nhIBPZEXWL4

BIN DEKHE AUR BIN PEHCHANE -FILM JAB PYAR KISI SE HOTA HAI.MOHD RAFI.mpg
youtu.be

  • Raj Chandarana The tune for the song came from Ron Godwin’s Dancing Eyes. Shankar Jaikishen were great fans of Ron and often based their work on his compositions
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iquXllKrxmo#
  • Asha Sridhar Well Raj, there is also an Arabic tune. So I don’t which of the 3 came first.
  • Raj Chandarana fascinating , would love to hear the Arabic tune. Yes agreed it could be based on that. Pretty sure Bin Dekhe .. Was not the original though. There was a write up on SJ compositions inspired by RGs work . I think it was Dattaram who wrote it or mentioned in an interview . anyway Bin Dekhe is a wonderful and I love it .
  • Arunesh Gupta thnx raj chandarana ji 4 this wonderful post thnx again
  • Asha Sridhar Yes and even though it is a copy, SJ had their own take on it.
  • Raj Chandarana Ashaji , I’m curious , in which way did SJ have their own take on Rons tune. They are identical compositions. Would love to learn more.
  • Asha Sridhar Haha  I get a slightly more Indian flavour
  • Raj Chandarana Hmm.., interesting.
  • Raj Senani I don’t think all of Ron Goodwin’s compositions are ORIGINALLY his ! IMO, most of them are derived/inspired from folk music of Arabian countries, Iran and others. I heard one of the so-called `HIS” compositions in Tehran in 2012 and confirmed (again and again) from very knowledgeable Iranian friends that that particular Ron Goodwin’s composition was, indeed, based upon an Iranian folk tune. So-much-so for Ron Godwin’s assumed `originality’ !!
  • Deepak Kadam Very nice post
  • Raj Chandarana Raj ji
    Very informative .must stress I have not said Ron Godwin’s ORIGINAL tunes. More to the point his compositions ( however he may been inspired) . It is a documented fact that SJ took a lot of inspiration from RG and famously … Ghar Aya mere paradesi .. In AWARA from Arabian tune which SJ openly admitted , it was a tune that Raj Kapoor liked so they used it as it was. 
    There is no negativity towards SJ here, but at the same time must remain open minded about how our Heros SJ used all the available resources to them to create their own, Just like the present day composers turn to SJ , LP KA. RDB For inspiration.
  • Rama Narayana Raj Chandaranaji…It is true that SJ copied these songs mentioned by you 100% including interludes…But the orchestration and use of selective sets/types of instruments in it and tune adoption ( aur iss dhun kaa Hindikaran) has the stamp of their intelligence ! Bombay is the Gateway of India for importing any thing ! Regarding Ghar aaya Mera Pardesi ..they had nicely adopted the tune and moulded it in Raag Bhairavi !As you rightly mentioned … SJ used all the available resources to them to create their own …sometimes adopted and sometimes modified the resources !
  • Sudarshan Pandey As Raj Chandarana ji has said, we should not get hurt or irritated or dislike if we get to know or someone says that SJ were inspired by some certain tune. This is a good comment because in those days there were very few people who could afford to buy music records of foreign musicians. SJ or whoever music director used to listen a good tune they wanted their fans to listen to that tune. We should be grateful to these music directors. 

    SJ fans can feel very proud that each and every tune they picked, they polished and decorated that tune with their color and ornaments producing Indianised version of that particular tune which according to me were far better than the originals.

    And the on the top, sometimes using foreign tunes were either their choice or choice by actor, director, producer etc etc and music directors were agree to oblige their request.

    We should keep in mind that working on other’s tune and making it more attractive is always a tough job.

  • Rama Narayana It is true.. Sudarshan Pandeyji and Raj Chandaranaji ! I said it in other words..even if they had adopted some foreign tunes, they with their skill improvised them and made them memorable ! You both have nicely detailed their passion in creating music ! Both of them lived, breathed, understood fully well Indian classical music and also western style of music and experimented fusion music and created many memorable hits which we enjoy them even today and the generations in future will also enjoy ! That’s why they are Great Legends and Trend setters!
  • Nikhil E Iyer The most difficult thing in life to take inspiration from something and creating an own tune keeping the inspiration in mind…that’s why SJ were the masters-they got inspired and decorated that inspiration with their self ideas and unique abilities taking the music to another level keeping our ‘hindustani’ flavour alive..
  • Asha Sridhar Well, just because SJ were inspired at times, it does not mean that they didn’t do anything originally. One of my friends, who is not a very big Naushad fan, always says snidely that Naushad was not very original because he was always inspired by classical raagas
  • Raj Chandarana This type of comments really goes to show that there can not be a reasonable discussion On the matters of above. Yes we all love SJ and Naushad and Madan Mohan and S D Burman and anyone else you care to name. We should really stop treating them as celestial beings. They were as mortal as the rest . It is their creative talents that we love and respect and endeavor to learn more about . Through exchange of views and debates we are able to do so. But it seems that any and all points that may appear slightly negative are rejected by many who can not see beyond the fact that these people could do no wrong. Well there have been no suggestions that SJ didn’t do anything original . It is through the availability of information over the internet that we can , as die hard fans , discover what inspired SJ, Naushad and many more. How many in the 1950’s knew that there were Arabic tunes or western tunes incorporated in their favourite songs? How many knew in the 1960s that SJ’s .. Dekho Aab to .. was based on a Beatles song , and Kaun hai Jo sapno me aaya was based on an Elvis Presley song. How many knew that Naushad used western Waltz in many of compositions? 
    I would urge people to remain open minded and look at the wealth of information available to us now and learn about their beloved SJ , LP, Naushad. .KA , etc. you will enjoy their music even more . 
    The choice remains with you.
  • Asha Sridhar Raj, you are right. It is important to enjoy the music…
  • Raj Chandarana To address the comment that Naushad was not very original because he was inspired by classical ragas … 
    One must first understand classical ragas before making such comments. Classical ragas are not composed pieces of work like western symphonies that can be copied in entirety . There are fixed ascending and descending notes in a raga scale and each raga has a time frame and mood. From this basic information the composer had to create his own composition. 
    Raga music is improvised depending on the mood , seasons, time of day etc. 
    Naushad ‘s. O Duniya ke rakhwale. From Baiju Bawra was based in Raga Darbari . So for this Naushad would have selected the notes of Darbari because it matched the mood required for the song. Then he would have to create a composition on the mood and in the framework of Darbari. 

    Important to remember Raga music is improvised never written. Raga Darbari played by Ustad Vilayat Khan will be different to Darbari played by Pandit Ravi Shankar. Yet it will remain in the same framework. 

    So to conclude was Naushad not original because he was inspired by RAGAS ? In my opinion he was Original. But in his use of western waltz he was not original.

  • Asha Sridhar Raj, it was a light hearted comment and not to be taken seriously lol
  • Rama Narayana Raj Chandarana ji.. I am to add to what you mentioned above… Even when the composers use classical raagas, they are not purely based on a particular Raaga and they mix other notes too to beautify the tune …that is their talent ..for example the composers start a tune in Raag Bhairav, evolve it into Raag Bhairavi and conclude it into Raag Ahir Bhairav (Jaagte Raho : Jaago Mohan Pyaare-by SalilDa) ! Same Raag Bhairavi SJ used to build up various moods in various situations…like Jaanewale Zara Hoshiyar…Juhi Ki Kali Meri Laadli…Ramaiah Vastaavaiah…Hum Kaale Hain To Kya Hua Dilwale Hain … Main Piya Teri Tu Maane Yaa Na Maane…Man Re Koi Bataa Kyaa Gaoon..Joshe Jawani Haye Re Haye..Mere Mann Ki Ganga..and so on…SJ and Naushad Saheb were brand ambassadors of Raag Bhairavi..SJ even used all Janya Raagas of Bhairavi ! Music was their life Style/soul… They even ventured to create fusion music(Indian and Western) in films and in private albums like “Raaga Jazz Style” even when they were very young ! We have very talented composers who left for us a TREASURE of Music..it is only our turn to ENJOY them !
  • Raj Chandarana Rama Narayana ji , well said. This shows that the raga inspired comopsitions can be said to be original. I have 3 copies of the album Raga Jazz Style . Master piece of composing.
  • Rama Narayana Raj Chandaranaji…To our surprise …The Arabian tunes match with the notes of Raagas Bhairav and Bhairavi,whereas the Western tunes with those of NatBhairavi and Keervaani…When tunes are made in Indian films, we enjoy the songs without being aware of the fact that they are based on classical Raagas or adopted ones from music abroad ..that is the beauty of experimentation done by our composers ! As you said rightly… our compositions, based raagas, can be termed to be original but at the same time, compositions based on same raaga may be mistaken for copied tunes! Sir… Indian classical music is our cultural heritage..Filmy composers like Shanker-Jaikshen, Naushad Saheb,Roshan,SachinDevBurman, MadanMohan, SalilDa,NayyerSaheb and so on …they all kept it alive through their lovely melodies based on Indian classical Raagas with their unique styles … Morover, Home made food is always tasty and healthy ! It is nice to interact with you RajSaheb!
    20 hours ago · Edited · Unlike · 3
  • Raj Chandarana Bravo. My hat off to you for your knowledge. I am very passionate about Raga music ( however I am not a musician) . Over the years I have sat with vilayat khan , Ravi Shankar, Rais Khan , Bismillah Khan and many more and discussed raga music . Even the most accomplished of western musicians have been to India to learn the basics of raga music, Yehudi Menhuin, Dave Brubeck, John Coltrain are just some. This action alone gives great respect to our Raga music.
    22 hours ago · Edited · Unlike · 4
  • Raj Chandarana Ashaji Thank you for posting Bin dekhe …. It has meandered into an interesting interaction.
  • Asha Sridhar I loved reading all the comments. Thanks to all contributors for making this an interesting and informative thread.
  • Rama Narayana Raj Chandaranaji..!I salute to you Rajsaheb for your association with so many great musicians ! But I am not that expert classical knowledgeable person… whatever I have learnt from “Vividh Bharati : Sangeeth Sarita/Swar Sudha Programmes” and interviews with great musicians/maestros, their published articles, I dared to place here some views of mine out of my meagre and mere observation on the filmy songs vis-à-vis the classical traditional collection I have with me…Really I do not know classical in depth…It is again not like OPNayyer Saheb’s statement…(he used to say “ I don’t know classical”) a Composer who composed “Tu Hai Mera Prem Devta”(Kalpana) in Raag Lalit and “Man Mora Bawra” (Raagini) in Raag NatBhairavi and tuned almost 80 percent of his songs in Raag Peelu alone ! It is really a great pleasure for me to have interaction with you,Sir ! Asha Sridharji I could interact with such a knowledgeable person because of your sharing of this song here ! Regards !
    20 hours ago · Edited · Unlike · 5
  • Krishnakumar Bhagwat Nice song with foot tapping music…..
  • Sudarshan Pandey Dear Raj Chandarana ji, you said, “that there can not be a reasonable discussion On the matters of above.”
    But you will appreciate that your discussion proved it very reasonable for many of us. Sir, this is open forum and you will find here people with no knowledge, or very less knowledge or misinformed etc etc. So please don’t get disheartened by few comments by people having wrong information. Raga Based songs should not be taken as a identification for not being original. Even you will get few people who are more vocal against such inspirations and straightway call the music director with taunt. But we should not get disturbed by these acts or comments and our job is to make these people understand about the misconceptions. Such discussions helps to clear many doubts in mind of ordinary listeners. Thanks a lot to Rama Narayana ji, Asha Sridhar ji and you sir.
    13 hours ago · Like · 1
  • Raj Chandarana Sudarshan Pandey ji , absolutely correct. A point well made and noted. Thank you.
    7 hours ago · Edited · Unlike · 1
  • Raj Chandarana Rama Narayanaji – it is I who should salute you. I have no formal training in music . It is just sheer passion , lots of listening and reading.
    7 hours ago · Unlike · 2
  • Maruti Rao V I have never seen a thread like this before and the discussion that has opened up has revealed such an valuable information on Ragas, SP ji the whole discussion has to be documented. Before such eminent and knowledgable people like Raj ji and Rama ji, our knowledge on everything looks limited. We are indeed privileged to have such extraordinary people here.
    7 hours ago · Unlike · 2
  • Rama Narayana It is amazing that the discussion started with “Bin Dekhe aur Bin Pehchane” and the comment series also went as a flow of views from us bin dekhe aur bin pehchane (none of us knows one another) but it went on well and we enjoyed ..Thanks to this SJ forum for being a platform for such interesting interactions on … copying (adopting tunes from abroad)…. composing on getting inspired by other tunes…using various classical Raagas as basis for composing filmy songs…the fusion music and so on !Various Maestros presented their tunes basing on same Raaga by treating it differently…even same music director used the same Raaga in different situations suitable to the filmy situational requirements …that shows their creativity and talent ! They are no less to any pure classical artistes ! Raj Chandarana ji, Sudarshan Pandeyji, Maruti Rao V ji…! Happy to be with you all without knowing much about one another (Bin Dekhe aur Bin Pehchane)…!!!! Further let us look forward..we will be knowing and realising more about aspects of this sort from one another ! Regards !
    5 hours ago · Unlike · 2
  • Rama Narayana Special thanks and regards to Asha Sridhar ji !
    5 hours ago · Unlike · 1
  • Neeraj Mittal Ron Goodwin’s Music for an Arabian Night has been a big source of inspiration for our MDs. This number appears in that album. Then Old Beirut inspired Koi Bulaye Aur Koi Aaye. Inspiration for Kahin karti hogi Woh Mera intezar, Baje Payal Chhun Chhun hoke Beqarar etc. can be traced to this album. Asha Sridhar ji will hear many more familiar tunes in Cairo.
    Thanks Raj Chandarana ji, Sudarshan Pandeyji, and Rama Narayanaji for the interesting discussion.
    5 hours ago · Unlike · 2
  • Rama Narayana Very interesting info Neeraj Mittal ji ..Thanks for highlighting such aspects of composing…It is interesting also to note that the Arabian tunes have some affinity towards Raag Bhairav (in Carnatic classical music it is equivalent to Raag Maayamaalava Gowla) ! Bhairav being the Raaga-thought itself, SJ used all raag-lets (Janya Raagas) of Bhairav…Sindhu Bhairavi, NataBhairavi, Ahir Bhairav and so on..to make their creative tunes ! They were born for Creative and Trend-setting Music !
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 2
  • Neeraj Mittal It is always a pleasure to just read the comments of people like you on this forum. It helps me appreciate music better. Chandarana ji has commented above that tune is a straight lift. I feel that there is nothing wrong in it because a song is not just the melody but the orchestration, tempo, harmonies, and the way it is sung are also very important. There are very few songs that can be called plagiarized. If you listen to Nazrul Islam’s Aruno Kanti Kego Jogi, you will find that entire tune without any change, was used by S D Burman in Poochho na kaise Maine rain Bitai, but the moods of both the numbers are quite different. I shall not like to call it plagiarism just because a tune inspired a team of lyricist, MD, and singer to create something entirely new and different. I shall request Sudarshan Pandeyji, and other Admins to invite knowledgeable members in the debate for their views.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
  • Raj Chandarana Neeraj Mittal ji . This is wonderful information. I am not an expert on Bengali folk melodies but have often come across SD Burman songs that have originated from the folk traditions 0f Bengal . Going back to BIN DEKHE BIN PECHHANE… If Rafisahab were to sing the lyrics to Ron Goodwins piece the song would be the same. The mood and the tempo is the same in SJ version. Would any one agree with me that a tune played on a piano and then on a the flute still remains the same tune but different sound ? It is this I try to point out that the tunes remain the same with maybe different orchestration. Plagiarism is not a term I like to use , I think the creative mind should take from everything around it and and then set about doing its work. If we were to take the discussion a lot deeper than it can be said hypothetically IF SJ copied the tune exactly note for note then it is plagiarism but with a change in just one note makes it a different composition in which case it can be said that SJ were inspired by a particular tune and not copied it. 

    It would be very interesting to take part in other debates. Always looking to learn , I find it allows me to enjoy the songs even more.

  • Neeraj Mittal Nazrul Islam was an Indian Bangla poet. He was a revolutionary and was known as Vidrohi Kavi. In 1972 he was invited by Bangladesh government to live in Dhaka where he lived till his death. He wrote and composed numerous songs, collectively known as Nazrul Geeti, and some of them are considered to be in the same class as Rabindra Sangeet. I give the link to the Nazrul song.

    http://youtu.be/f_tI1LPeTWk

  • Sudarshan Pandey When such discussions happen, I feel proud of SJ and their ardent fans for making the group more vibrant and useful. And as advised by Maruti Rao V ji, I am here for its documentation. Doing it in few minutes. Everyone who participated and shared views deserve kudos for their intensity.

HMV writes about music of Jis Desh Mein Ganga Behti Hai

 

Friends, Please see the HMV statement regarding JISDESHMEGANGABAHATIHAI 1960 Music on their LP cover…….
The music on this record is taken from the soundtrack of R.K.films stupendous production “ Jis Deshme Ganga Baheti Hai” featuring Indian screen’s top star Rajkapoor and Padmini. The theme of the film is the strange story of the progress of a strange pilgrim, a simple hearted child of the soil,who sings his way into the hearts of men where for centuries the monster of hate and crime has resided. The music is provided by the ace team of music directors ShankarJaikishan who in their own words were guided by a single thought that the music of this film must present the genius of the land,with this end in view they have had to resort to a great deal of inspired choral singing, utilize folk styles typical of the music of the soil, and assemble perhaps the most varied and extensive orchestra used in any recent Indian film. Rhythm is the dominating feature of the musical score of “JDMGBH” and in composing this score the music directors appear to have been conscious of one striking truth that rhythm evokes similar reactions to each beat from diverse people and signifies the one new of life. The songs renderings which have done full justice to the music are mainly by the ever popular playback singers Lata and Mukesh whereas other artists who have ably assisted them in certain numbers are Asha,Geeta Dutt,Manna dey and Mahendra kapoor.
Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 1,583 other followers

%d bloggers like this: